https://wiki.april.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=JennyB&feedformat=atomApril MediaWiki - Contributions de l’utilisateur [fr]2024-03-28T16:07:35ZContributions de l’utilisateurMediaWiki 1.35.13https://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=M%C3%A9dias_%C3%A0_transcrire&diff=81368Médias à transcrire2018-11-06T16:49:01Z<p>JennyB : /* À relire avec ou sans le son */</p>
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<div>[[Image:Transcriptions2.png|right|150px]] <br />
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== Présentation == <br />
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La page principale pour les médias sur le site de l'April est ici: http://www.april.org/fr/videos.<br />
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L'ensemble de ces fichiers sur le serveur sont stockés ici: http://media.april.org/video/ et http://media.april.org/audio/.<br />
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Sur le wiki, une page permet de noter les caractéristiques des fichiers audio et vidéo qui sont sur le serveur avant d'en faire une fiche sur le site web : [[AudioVideo]].<br />
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'''Ces médias sont tous en rapport avec le Logiciel Libre, sa défense, sa promotion…'''<br />
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{{Boite | titre= Les prochaines transcriptions du groupe<br />
| bordure=rgb(132, 136, 220)|fond=Honeydew |largeur=70% |couleurTitre=tomato}}<br />
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''' Les vidéos de la liste ''À relire ou en relecture'''''<br />
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<strong>Si vous avez des médias à proposer, complétez la liste ''Suggestions'' et envoyez un message.</strong> <br />
{{BoiteFin}}<br />
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=== Suggestions ===<br />
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*[http://www.la-bas.org/article.php3?id_article=2931 Émission france-inter Là-bas si j'y suis du 05/02/2014 Le bon Dieu te regarde même si tu es aux cabinets 1]<br />
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*[http://www.franceinter.fr/emission-la-bas-si-jy-suis-le-bon-dieu-te-regarde-meme-quand-tu-es-aux-cabinets-2 Émission france-inter Là-bas si j'y suis du 05/02/2014 Le bon Dieu te regarde même si tu es aux cabinets 2]<br />
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*[http://www.freetorrent.fr/index.php?page=torrent-details&id=e8ae902cca9e4d5dd7f8a9691bb6b45fdc8a7e8f Logiciel Libre, Société Libre - Richard M. Stallman à Grenoble - avril 2014] 2h 23 min<br />
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*[https://facil.qc.ca/fsm2016-grande-conf-logiciel-libre La grande conférence sur le logiciel libre avec RMS et Marianne Corvellec - Forum social mondial 2016] 2 h 16 min 26<br />
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*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZFi-vtqrpo&feature=youtu.be Audition programmatique #20 - Numérique - April et Savoirs communs] 1 h 07 min 39<br />
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* [https://rmll.ubicast.tv/channels/#2017-saint-etienne Conférences des RMLL2017] ad libitum NB : diverses conférences déjà transcrites et publiées<br />
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* [https://framatube.org/media?q=jdll2017 Conférences des JDLL Lyon 2017] ad libitum NB : diverses conférences déjà transcrites et publiées<br />
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* [https://www.youtube.com/embed/_D1TTMOjZiE?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent Données personnelles et vie privée : ce qui va changer avec le RGPD] 01 h 53 min 49 sec<br />
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*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbDOuZYmv68 Travailler ensemble pour la défense des libertés - Benjamin Bayart, Pierre-Yves GOSSET, piks3l] 1 h 30 min<br />
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*[https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/linvite-des-matins/neutralite-du-net-hegemonie-des-gafa-la-democratie-prise-dans-la-toile Neutralité du net, hégémonie des GAFA : la démocratie prise dans la toile] 15 min<br />
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*[https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/claire-mathieu/inaugural-lecture-2017-11-16-18h00.htm Algorithmes - Leçon inaugurale - Claire Mathieu] 1 h 3 min<br />
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*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/affaires-sensibles/affaires-sensibles-28-novembre-2017 Le grand méchant darknet - Amaelle Guitton] 54 min<br />
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*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=0IhQGYgT2vE « Web et vie privée » - Stéphane Bortzmeyer - 2018] 41 min <br />
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*[https://radio.amicus-curiae.net/podcast/open-data-donnees-ouvertes-pour-monde-ouvert-ou-totalitaire/ Open data, données ouvertes pour un monde ouvert ou totalitaire - Amicus Radio] 36 min 45<br />
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*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/comme-un-bruit-qui-court/comme-un-bruit-qui-court-12-mai-2018 Données personnelles : Gare au GAFAM] 53 min<br />
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*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDPFnywbWDo&index=35&list=PLTbQvx84FrASpPvTGt_0BzttHUvMEvXyP Philosophie de l'Intelligence artificielle - Une introduction] 39 min<br />
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*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/l-instant-m/l-instant-m-08-juin-2018 Comment se fabriquent les "fake news" ? Antonio Casilli] 18 min<br />
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*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=lgOrpwPfW00 Enjeux de la blockchain pour les collectivités | Congrès ADULLACT 2018 - Stéphane Bortzmeyer] 58 min 32<br />
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*[http://www.canalc2.tv/video/15198 Les formats, un sujet toujours d'actualité - Thierry Stoehr - RMLL2018] 59 min 40<br />
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*[https://www.france24.com/fr/20180912-debat-france24-union-europeenne-hongrie-gafa-facebook-google-internet?ref=fb Droit d'auteur : aux géants du net de payer ?] 26 min 15<br />
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*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=57&v=5dVmayb6sp4 CN2018 TABLE RONDE] 42 min 46<br />
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*[https://webtv.utc.fr/watch_video.php?v=XUAU4YKB1XMX Des communs fonciers aux communs numériques - Benjamin Coriat] 49 min 25<br />
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*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=SOXAnl7qO8c Parlons-en - Framasoft et le Libre avec Pouhiou] 31 min 33<br />
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* [https://www.april.org/decryptualite-du-8-octobre-2018-fablab-quand-la-maitrise-de-la-technologie-alimente-notre-creativite Décryptualité du 8 octobre 2018 - Fablab : quand la maîtrise de la technologie alimente notre créativité et nous donne du pouvoir sur nos vies] 15 min<br />
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*[https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/la-methode-scientifique/ethique-numerique-des-datas-sous-serment Éthique numérique, des datas sous serment] 58 min<br />
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*[https://entreprise.maif.fr/entreprise/pour-une-societe-collaborative/decouvrir-nos-actions/nos-conference-et-debats-a-partager-replay Qui contrôle internet et les médias sociaux - Divina Frau-Meigs - 03/10/2018 à Lons Le Saunier (39)] 1:06:22<br />
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== Travaux ==<br />
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=== En cours ===<br />
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* [[Free_Libre_alternatives_to_GAFAMs_Internet_a_review_of_French_Initiatives]] : Free/Libre alternatives to GAFAMs Internet a review of French Initiatives, Marianne Corvellec and Jonathan Le Lous à LibrePlanet 2016<br />
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* [[Open_Experience_Art_et_Culture ]] Open Experience : Quels modèles économiques pour l’Open dans l’Art et la Culture ? Lionel Maurel<br />
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* [[Audition et logiciels libres : conférence RMLL juillet 2013]] commencée par Irina<br />
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* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Tristan_Nitot_-_BacFM_Nevers Tristan Nitot interviewé sur BACFM à Nevers dans le cadre d'une émission sur l’événement Dégooglisons internet]] commencée par Techno2900<br />
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* [https://wiki.april.org/w/L%27%C3%A9cologie_et_le_num%C3%A9rique L'écologie et le numérique]] commencée par Mammig*<br />
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=== À relire avec ou sans le son ===<br />
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* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Pourquoi_le_LL_est-il_plus_important_que_jamais Pourquoi le logiciel libre est-il plus important que jamais - Conf Richard Stallman - Janvier 2014 - Cité des sciences - Paris] 1h 33 min<br />
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* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Faut-il_breveter_les_logiciels Faut-il breveter les logiciels ? Table ronde - Aquitaine Science Transfert] 2 heures 3 min<br />
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* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Conf%C3%A9rence_%22Logiciels_libres_:_impacts_et_enjeux_sur_la_soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9%22_Nantes Logiciels libres : impacts et enjeux sur la société - Jeanne Tadeusz à Nantes] 1h 40 min relu en entier avec le son, mais nécessiterait une ultime relecture car le son n'est pas très bon<br />
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* [http://wiki.april.org/w/R%C3%A9trospective_juridique_-_Actualit%C3%A9_-_Travaux_en_cours_-_Benjamin_Jean_-_RMLL2015#10.27_16 Rétrospective juridique : actualité et travaux en cours - Benjamin Jean - RMLL2015] 40 min 38<br />
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* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Mettre_en_place_une_politique_publique_en_faveur_du_logiciel_libre_-_Table_ronde Mettre en place une politique publique en faveur du logiciel libre - Table ronde au POSS 2016 animée par Étienne Gonnu] 1 h 36 min 29<br />
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* [https://wiki.april.org/w/La_sph%C3%A8re_s'int%C3%A9resse_au_logiciel_libre_-_Radio_Canada Logiciels libres - La sphère - Radio-Canada] 53 min<br />
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* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Enseignement_sup%C3%A9rieur,_recherche_et_Logiciel_Libre_-_RMLL2018 Enseignement supérieur, recherche et Logiciel Libre - RMLL2018] 1 h 04 min 38<br />
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* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Pourquoi_une_biblioth%C3%A8que_universelle_des_logiciels_-_Software_Heritage_-_Roberto_Di_Cosmo Pourquoi une bibliothèque universelle des logiciels - Software Heritage - Roberto Di Cosmo] 48 min 30<br />
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* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Internet_:_neutre_mais_pas_trop Internet : neutre mais pas trop ?] 58 min<br />
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* [https://wiki.april.org/w/J%C3%A9r%C3%A9mie_Zimmermann_:_1984,_un_manuel_d%E2%80%99instructions Jérémie Zimmermann : 1984, un manuel d’instructions] 1 h 24 min<br />
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* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Blockchain_-_Les_temps_%C3%A9lectriques_-_Primavera_De_Filippi Blockchain - Les temps électriques - Primavera De Filippi] 39 min<br />
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* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es Éthique et l’intégrité de la collecte et de partage des données] Conférence en anglais de 47 min - relecture en cours par [[Discussion utilisateur:JennyB|JennyB]]<br />
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===Relu avec le son, en attente de relecture orthographique===<br />
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* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Responsabilit%C3%A9_des_ing%C3%A9nieurs_-_%C3%89ric_Sadin Responsabilité des ingénieurs - Éric Sadin] 26 min <b>NB : </b> M. Sadin donnera son accord, ou pas, pour la publication de cette transcription, donc en attente - relu par Bookynette & Khrys<br />
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* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Projet_Signoth%C3%A8que_-_PSESHSP_2016 Projet Signothèque - Association Arboré'Sign _ PSESHSF 2016] 43 min 45 - relu par Khrys<br />
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* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Procès_de_l'intelligence_artificielle_à_la_Cour_d'appel_de_Paris_-_Benjamin_Bayart Procès de l'intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris - Benjamin Bayart] 20 min 40 - relu (une note et ajout de titres, n'ai pas retiré un titre, finir les titres) par JennyB le 6/11/2018<br />
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=== En attente de validation ===<br />
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* [[TEDx_Frederic_Couchet]] sous titrage à mettre en ligne sur le site web<br />
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=== Publiées dans le mois ===<br />
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* [https://www.april.org/contributopia-degoogliser-ne-suffit-pas-peut-faire-du-libre-sans-vision-politique-pierre-yves-gosset Contributopia : Dégoogliser ne suffit pas ! Peut-on faire du libre sans vision politique ? - Pierre-Yves Gosset - RMLL2018] 1 h 29 min 40<br />
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* [https://www.april.org/web-et-vie-privee-stephane-bortzmeyer Web et vie privée - Stéphane Bortzmeyer] 41 min 40<br />
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===[[Transcriptions publiées]]===<br />
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== Retour ==<br />
à la [[Transcriptions page d'accueil|page]] d'accueil du groupe.<br />
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[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
[[Catégorie:Video]]</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Discussion:Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es&diff=81367Discussion:Ethique et l'intégrité collecte données2018-11-06T16:46:53Z<p>JennyB : </p>
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<div>relecture avec son et vidéo : en cours [[Utilisateur:JennyB|JennyB]] ([[Discussion utilisateur:JennyB|discussion]]) 6 novembre 2018 à 16:21 (CET)<br />
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24'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Utilisateur:JennyB&diff=81366Utilisateur:JennyB2018-11-06T16:46:04Z<p>JennyB : /* Ai relu */</p>
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<div>Coucou :p<br />
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Je suis nouvelle (suis venue 2 fois aux réus).<br />
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Je fais en ce moment ma 3e relecture (https://wiki.april.org/w/M%C3%A9dias_%C3%A0_transcrire#.C3.80_relire_avec_ou_sans_le_son)<br />
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== Ai relu ==<br />
* [[Signotheque]] <br />
* [[Procès_de_l'intelligence_artificielle_à_la_Cour_d'appel_de_Paris_-_Benjamin_Bayart]] : penser aux titres (n'ai pas effacé un titre temps)<br />
* '''en cours''' https://wiki.april.org/w/Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es#24.2716_-_transcrit_Juu.2C_relu_son_CBA<br />
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Jenn<br />
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== Divers ==<br />
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=== Codes wiki utiles ===<br />
commentaires <nowiki><!-- Temps vidéo : 3 mn 54 sur 20 mn 42 --></nowiki></div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es&diff=81365Ethique et l'intégrité collecte données2018-11-06T16:45:15Z<p>JennyB : /* 24'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA */</p>
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<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
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'''Titre :''' Ethique et intégrité de la collecte et du partage des données - science citoyenne et autres projets d'Open Science<br />
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'''Titre VO IETF=[en-US] :''' Ethics and Integrity of Data Collection and Sharing - citizen science and other open science projects<br />
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'''Intervenant :''' Puneet Kishor <br />
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'''Lieu :''' RMLL2015 - Beauvais<br />
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'''Date :''' Juillet 2015<br />
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'''Durée :''' 47'10"<br />
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'''[http://videos-cdn.rmll.info/videos2015/ubicast/web/showroom/126-ethique-et-lintegrite-de-la-collecte_1f5a/v1253b456c154lcspb36_high.webm Lien]''' vers la '''la vidéo'''<br />
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==Transcription==<br />
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==00' J'essaye, MO, cqfd93, CBA==<br />
Rencontres Mondiales du Logiciel Libre. Beauvais 2015<br />
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'''Présentateur :''' Eh bien, nous allons commencer la conférence suivante et Corinne tu es avec nous, tout va bien. Je donne la parole. Ah, votre microphone est ici. Your microphone is there. I shall not translate.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' What's that?<br />
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'''Présentateur:''' I shall not translate, because...<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' That's OK, OK.<br />
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'''Présentateur :''' Ça va pour l’anglais tout le monde ?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' I apologize, I am going to talk in English. but it will give you a chance to practice your English with me. My French is much worse than your English, you don't want me to be doing that anyway. This is going to be a very different presentation, I think, from most of the presentations you've been hearing. Most of them has been about software. This is about matter issues, bigger issues, not bigger, I don't mean more noble but bigger in terms of more complicated issues about ethics and integrity and what we can or cannot, or should or should not do.<br />
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So hopefully you will find this of interest and I will want your reactions to that. It's very good that the conservation, if I understand correctly, ended with a little bit of talk about terms of services and licenses ???, is that right? I can have got that, you now, my French is not good and my Spanish is not good and I don't know any Portuguese but I could get that much little bit.<br />
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I actually used to work for an organization called Creative Commons. How many people have heard of Creative Commons?<br />
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I am surprised that there are few people who have not heard of Creative Commons. Creative Commons is the organization that makes copyright licenses, one of which is actually [NdT:now] used by Wikipedia for everything that is published on Wikipedia. And CC licenses as they are called are Creative Commons copyright licenses, I worked at Creative Commons for three years as the manager of Science and Data policy.<br />
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So my focus is more on science and the application of licensing information to scientific data and scientific software. <br />
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In this presentation I'm going to go in a slightly different but related direction.<br />
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How many people here understand what is a license?<br />
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No, no, it's easier than meaning of life. Can you tell me in very short what is a license?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Very good! A license is a permission. You can do something with my work or whatever that I have licensed. A license is a permission given in advance without knowing what you may do or not do. Think of a notice on a park, it says "You can come and sit here and enjoy the park", that's a license to enjoy the park. The person who's put the notice doesn't know who's going to enjoy the park, but it has been put there in the future for anyone to enjoy the park, that's a license.<br />
License is based upon some kind of underlying law. There is something that gives me the right to give you the permission, right? This is Pablo's computer, he gave me the permission to use his computer. If it was not his computer, he couldn't have given me per- well, he could have given me permission but wouldn't have meant anything, right? Because he doesn't have the right to give it to me. So in order for me to license something, I have to have the rights on it, that I can license.<br />
In the world of intellectual property, there is a right called Copyright Law. How many of you understand what is Copyright Law? Even generally.<br />
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==05' Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB==<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Can you tell me what is copyright law, short?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Someone else: Can you tell me what is copyright law?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Try it! No?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Copyright law is a law that gives me the first right in the benefits that I may get from things I create, OK? So if I write a poetry or if I write a song or make a film or make a Wikipedia page, I immediately get rights on it and I get the benefit or the first chance of benefiting from those. And then, based on that, I can give those rights to others and I do that using a license. If you go to any Wikipedia page or any page and if you go to the very bottom of it, terms of use, somewhere there will be written that "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply". The person who wrote this had rights, that person then gave away those rights using this license. This license was made by Creative Commons where I used to work. OK, so that's the connection. OK. Now, Let's come back to my talk.<br />
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<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 01 sur 47 mn 10 copyright law licence : end of intro--><br />
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So you all are now experts in copyright law and you all are now experts in licenses. But there are things which are not covered by copyright law and if they are not covered by copyright law, I don’t have rights in it that I can license away, and if I can't do that then how does the world work? And that is the subject of my talk. As you can see I've gone beyond the Creative Commons basically.<br />
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<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 34 --><br />
=== Approving conventional science projects ===<br />
Conventional science projects, and I'm using the word "conventional" to mean the most common place science projects that happen in universities and higher research institutions, if they involve human subjects, they have to be approved. I don't know the situation in France, but I'm hundred percent sure it probably is the same as in the United States. There is some independent body that has to approve your project to ensure that you're going to treat your human subject with respect. In the United States, these bodies are called '''Institutional Review Boards''' (IRBs) <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 20 -->. When I want to make such a project <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 25 ??? il mange ses mots mais ca va --> and I want to study behavior or I want to study people and their behavior on anything, it could be a social sciences project, it could be a health project, it really doesn't matter. If humans are involved, I have to get the project approved, and the IRB which are independent bodies, they will review my project and they will ask me a lot of questions and they'll make it very difficult for me. In fact they will make sure that I'm doing everything correctly and that I am not going to do anything that will in any way harm or disrespect the humans that I'm studying. <!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 07 --> <br />
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If I am going to be getting any data from humans, I will inform them, so if I am going to be studying you, I will inform you in advance as to what I'm getting from you and you will have the option to leave the study if you want. Understood? OK.<br />
So that's a very very basic step in all science project. IRBs are like the ethical watchguards. Typically, IRBs do their review in the beginning of a project, and they review the project and then they say "yes you can do it" or "no you can't do it" or "yes you can do it but you have to make these corrections etc, etc"<br />
OK? Yeah?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 54 --><br />
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== 09'53 Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA(+son) et relu JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 55 sur 47 mn 10 relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
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If I am going too fast, let me know, I mean I know when you people talk really fast in French I can't understand. I'm learning French, I understand if you speak slow, but I can understand the same thing with English.<br />
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=== Citizen Science === <!-- Temps vidéo : 10 mn 21, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
'''But what about … Citizen Science?''' Have you heard the term Citizen Science? Has anyone here heard the term Citizen Science? George you have… no? Nobody has heard the term Citizen Science besides George? George, can you tell me what is Citizen Science? You can tell in French.<br />
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'''Public :''' C'est de la science faite par des non spécialistes, par des passionnés. By passionate people, not specialists.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, so there's several kinds of Citizen Science, typically Citizen Science involves, it does involve a specialist, say me, but then I employ, not employ as in payment, but I recruit a lot of common citizens who are not specialists to help me do the project.<br />
<br />
Have you heard of a product called "Galaxy Zoo"? Galaxy Zoo is a very famous Citizen Science project. Zooniverse is the platform on which Galaxy Zoo is based.<br />
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There's a very famous project called the Cornell Birds Survey. Every year, Cornell University in the United States does this bird survey where citizens from all over the United States for a specified period go out and count birds. And it's been going on for more than a decade. It's a very rich project, yes.<br />
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'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' I wouldn't call it Citizen Science although it does involve getting permission from the person whose computer on which you're running SETI@home, I wouldn't call it Citizen Science, I would just call it more like "distributed computing", you know, that's really what I'm doing here, OK. <br />
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'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah, exactly, and the work can be of different kinds or quality. So I can ask you all to feel a survey, or I can ask you all to complete some task for me, or I can ask you all to report me every time that your leaving, or something like that, right. I can employ your muscles, I can employ your eyes, or I can employ your brain to help me in analyze something, etc.<br />
<br />
So, Citizen Science is becoming very popular. It's becoming very, very popular because with the advent of the Internet and particularly with the advent of something like this [NdT:mobile phone shown], which is really a very powerful computer: I mean this is more powerful than a laptop that I add about five years ago. There's a lot of things I can do: it is a GPS, it's a camera, it is all kinds of sensors, that's a light sensor. I mean this is unbelievable, right? I mean, you know... And it's in my pocket. So this is... And everyone has one. So it's allowing people to do settling signs, distributed signs. Let have a quote, that says: "... is changing the relationship between science and society by fostering more collaborative, interdisciplinary research."<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13 mn 35, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --><br />
<br />
== 13'36 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB +son ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn37, titre de la slide --> <br />
=== How do we evaluate, approve and monitor citizen science projects ===<br />
How do we approve, evaluate and monitor some citizen science projects, that's the theme of my presentation.<br />
<br />
==== Three kinds of open projects ====<br />
<br />
There are three kinds of projects according to a paper that I found. <br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn47, sous-titre de la slide : contributory --> <br />
<br />
Projects where citizens '''contribute''' some information, projects where they actually not just contribute some information, but they also help '''collaborate''' and help design or even analyze some information. Galaxy Zoo has a sort of that doc, you actually see some information and you tell whether it's a star or a nebula or... You know, you actually do something, you think about something and you make a judgment call.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn23, sous-titre de la slide : Co-created --> <br />
And then the various sort of the top end of Citizen Science projects would be where scientists and citizens get together and try and figure out what to study.<br />
<br />
There is actually another fourth kind of citizen science project that's happening a lot: '''self-organized'''. <!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn39, sous-titre de la slide : self-organized --> How many here have heard the term quantified-self? Can you tell me what's quantified-self?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn52 --><br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible <!-- Temps vidéo : 15mn07 --><br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, kind of. For example my phone has a motion sensor. Every time I walk it counts the number of steps I walked. And it basically allows me to keep track of how many steps I've walked and if I go here and click on a button, it'll tell me that today I've walked five thousand steps. Five thousands one hundred and five, which actually is not a lot, I should be walking twice as much more. It also tells me that I've climbed two floors, so I haven't done much climbing today.<br />
<br />
But quantified-self is, I mean it could be anything, it could be how much you walk, it could be taking your blood pressure on a daily basis, it could be measuring your heartbeat on a daily basis, and there are people, there is a very weird place in this world, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's called San Francisco, where people are obsessed with this kind of stuff, and there are constantly measuring everything about themselves. They've got like you know, they just get stuck everywhere and they are just measuring everything, which is why I run away from there and I came to Paris, where nobody seems to be obsessed by it at all. But, that's quantified-self. <!-- Temps vidéo : 16mn19 --><br />
<br />
But people are taking this quantification further into analysis, and people are grouping their data together and trying to figure out what's wrong with them, trying to cure diseases, people who have certain kinds of diseases are building websites where they can collaborate and talk to each other and say "hey, you know, this is happening to me, is it happening to you also? I get headaches when I drink red wine, do you get headaches when you drink red wine also?". Things like that they are doing, right? These are sort of self-organized scientific projects that are happening.<br />
<br />
So then these projects are happening outside conventional academies, they are not happening at the universities, they are not happening at Université Marie Curie, they are not happening at Stanford University, they are just happening at, just people, meeting together and doing these things, right? Who monitors these projects?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15 --><br />
<br />
== 17'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15, relecture son JennyB, 6 nov 2018 --> <br />
'''How do we approve non-conventional projects?''' <br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn18, titre de la slide, avec 4 puces qu'on devrait faire resortir (mise en forme) :<br />
citizen science, sensors, self-measurement (quantified self), participants led research (PLR) lu à 18mn15 --> <br />
<br />
So, the thing that I want to ask about is, and actually I'm going to ask you a lot of question, I'm not gonna provide any answers.<br />
The thing that I'm really asking about is: how do we approve non-conventional projects?<br />
<br />
If you decide to do a study on yourself, maybe you are taking samples out of your body, and measuring them or something. Is that ethical? Is it ethical to harm yourself? I mean the society says no. It is illegal to commit suicide. In many societies at least, in many societies. So the issue really becomes how do we evaluate and monitor projects that lie outside things that are governed by law?<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn15 --> <br />
Citizen science, sensors, self-measurement, participant led research, that's one of the big things that are very popular. As I mentioned people have certain diseases and they make a website where people of same disease can come together and share their experiences. You know, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease, different kinds of cancers, a lot of people want, they want somewhat comfort in a community, right? And they are sometimes giving each other advice and they are doing it outside the mechanism of medicine and health laws and the institutions. <!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn57, titre de la slide : substitute for IRBs ? --> <br />
<br />
So what is the substitute for IRBs in this question, that's something that I'm thinking about.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 19mn04, titre de la slide : what about ongoing monitoring --><br />
=== What about ongoing monitoring ===<br />
<br />
== 19'04 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
: On the slide '''What about ongoing monitoring?''', six items<br />
:: - Collecting data on others<br />
:: - (Mis-)Reporting Data<br />
:: - Damaging Irreplaceable Evidence<br />
:: - Invading Privacy of Others<br />
:: - Balancing Orivacy and Honesty<br />
:: - Giving Credit<br />
<br />
And what about ongoing monitoring? Even if you approve such a project, even if there is, even if you set up a system where you can approve some kind of projects that's going on, how do you monitor it on an ongoing basis? Where people are doing things like they may be collecting data on others, what if I'm collecting data on you and misreport it? I tell something bad about you or I tell something good about myself that doesn't exist. You know, what if I recruit all of you to measure water samples from your village wells, and you find that it's not very good, and you decide not to report it, right? So these are the issues. Or you find that somebody else's well is not very good, and that person hasn't reported. Should you tell on that person, that person hasn't reported, you know, because then there's the issue of privacy that comes in.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 20mn04 --> <br />
<br />
So '''invading privacy of others''', if there's a citizen science project let's say, let's say I recruited all of you because I'm studying nesting habits of certain kinds of birds; And you all are bird lovers and I've recruited all of you, and you are supposed to go to the nests of the birds and take photographs and bring them back to me. Turns out that you're also a collector of eggs, and you steal the eggs, right? That's the issue so harming existing data or harming natural environment or culture property, these are the issues when there is no mechanism for ongoing monitoring that might exist in a more conventional academy.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 20mn49 --><br />
<br />
== 20'49 transcrit par Cpm, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
<br />
=== Legal tools are… ===<br />
So the reality is that legal tools that exist such as copyright law, etc, are inadequate,<br />
they either don't exist, and if they exist, they are inadequate, they are inappropriate, they are expensive, nobody likes lawyers, lawyers are expensive and they are confusing, and they really scare us.<br />
I mean you know, how many of you have ever been to a court? No one.<br />
And a lot of people will never go to a court in their normal lives.<br />
I mean a normal life, doesn't involve lawyers.<br />
And it doesn't involve courts and yet our life is ruled by laws.<br />
Right? So, it's an interesting thing that we have all these laws and yet laws don't really, you know, come in to play in our life on a daily basis.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 21mn41 --> <br />
<br />
<br />
: On the slide Legal tools are…, five items<br />
:: - Inadequate<br />
:: - Inappropriate<br />
:: - Expensive<br />
:: - Complicated<br />
:: - Fear-Driven<br />
<br />
: Sur l'écran "Le recours aux outils de la Loi sont…" cinq points :<br />
:: - Inadéquation<br />
:: - Inapproprié<br />
:: - Cher (coûteux)<br />
:: - Compliqué<br />
:: - Guidé par/génère de la peur<br />
<br />
== 21'41 transcrit par Cpm, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
Slide 14/19 '''Do no evil'''<br />
<br />
So, one solution could be do no evil. You eared that one, right?<br />
Do you know evil?<br />
That hasn't gone very well. <!-- Temps vidéo : 21mn52, point de la slide 14 --> <br />
There is a big company that has this, think all do no evil.<br />
And they have done even evil up there.<br />
<br />
=== Slide 15/19 : Respect and social contract. Can good behavior and a sense of community work? ===<br />
<br />
So, maybe, <!-- Temps vidéo : 22mn01 --> the thing that I, I'm thinking quite a bit about, is about just mutual respect and social contract.<br />
So how many of you have eared the term social contract? "Contrat social", here we go, french, yeah, Rousseau, yeah.<br />
So this is notion that we give up something to get something. Right?<br />
We, individuals, when we become member of a society or a country, we give up some of our individual freedoms, in return for the safety and other things that the society provide.<br />
That's the social contract, right?<br />
I'll be a citizen of France and France will look after me, that kind of a thing. Did somebody laugh ?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes because maybe too much.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah. But anyway, that's the notion of social contract.<br />
This notion that there is something that bind all of the groups together.<br />
<br />
== 23'03 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
: On the slide 16 '''Good behaviour by another name''' 5 items<br />
:: - Code of conduct<br />
:: - Social contract<br />
:: - Hippocratic oath<br />
:: - Honor Code<br />
:: - Respect<br />
<br />
So, here are different names for good behavior. You know, a lot of conferences nowadays have this thing called "code of conduct". And of course social contract, doctors have this thing called Hippocratic oath, you know the little Rx, you know "I'll never harm anyone, bla bla bla etc", we have something called "honor code university", I don't know if you have that here? In the United States there's a honor code that you will not cheat, like we can get exams where you take the exam to your home, and you bring it back two or three days later but it's a honor code that you will not ask someone else, you know. Mutual respect…<br />
So what I'm saying is interestingly there are things they may not always work, but there are things out there which are not based in law. And they are designed to make communities work, OK? So can something like this be used or maybe a combination of these things be used?<br />
<br />
== 24'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
: On the slide 17 '''Importance of data integrity''', 2 items<br />
:: - open is good but not a substitute for good science<br />
:: - what if the design is open but the data are bad?<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 24m16 JennyB en est là --> <br />
<br />
One issue that becomes very important that I'm really interested in is the notion of data integrity. <br />
<br />
This thing [holding his phone] is telling me that I walked five thousand one hundred and five steps today. What if it's over-reporting? What if it's under-reporting? I don't know. Should I just believe it? We go to live believing a lot of things, not questioning them, right? Until we get some other evidence to the contrary.<br />
<br />
There is a lot of focus in this conference and in my life, I work at creative cons as I said, on open license, right? First of all I guarantee you ninety percent of the people don't know what an open license means when they say "open license". OK, fair enough. Like people don't know what organic means, but they shop organic food, right?<br />
<br />
Open is good, but is not a substitute for good science, 'cause in the end science is asking certain questions, and that is more important than anything. What would you rather? Open but crappy science, closed but good science? If you're a scientist you would probably choose good science, because a scientist is motivated by answering questions. By finding insights of something.<br />
<br />
So the question, and this is particularly useful not so much in software, but in hardware. Open hardware. What if the design is open but the data coming out of the hardware are bad? So let's say I make a hardware, I made some fantastic sensor, you know like the Star Wars tricorder it can measure everything, and I publish it under an open license, right? And you come in, you see that, you like it, you take it down, you're a great guy, we are not very honest. You take my open design and you make some changes to it, or you maybe cut some corners and make something which has license opened but now is not producing right data. And what if this thing was measuring something that was important for environmental health or public health, maybe reporting on air quality, maybe reporting on water quality? there could be serious consequences for public health.<br />
<br />
So the issue of data integrity is very important which has nothing to do with licensing, but it's very important for open science and the quality of science.<br />
<br />
== 26'55 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Evaluating data integrity'''<br />
<br />
So, there is a study that I found where they found many ways in which you can actually evaluate data integrity. <br />
<br />
By the way, all my ??? talk is on my website and, no software's required, just a browser, just click you know, it's a program I wrote and so it's available to anyone. So you can see all the links are there.<br />
<br />
So you can measure different... Think of these like vectors along which you can measure data integrity. Is the data accessible, believable, complete, consistent, relevant, secure, etc. There is many things you can measure, you can add more to this or subtract from this. They are dimensions that you can measure.<br />
<br />
Building can do as look a reputation, or think of it like social capital. This is very common on web communities, right? How many likes for example, or how many re-tweets, this is one example of some kind of trust and something. We have reputation scores in communities that are software, particularly software communities well you know, there is someone who's answered a lot of questions. Has people used Stackoverflow? Stackoverflow has the reputation, all has this reputation system basically, and as your reputation grows more you can do more things, etc.<br />
So that's sort like trust across social networks, and what I call co-calibration where you can take yourself and calibrate yourself against someone else, or take a piece of hardware and calibrate a against a non-truth, maybe a reference hardware. So, that's another way for evaluating data integrity.<br />
<br />
The bottom line is that there are mechanisms out there for making our lives run in a community fashion, without involving law. What are some of those mechanisms that can be taken together or combined into something that can be used to evaluate and monitor open science projects. And this is the thing that I actually find the most interesting right now and sort of my post-license world of work.<br />
<br />
== 29'37 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
That's all the talk I have. I think I have a lot of time left, right?<br />
So, I really want people to speak up and give their thoughts and, you know, that's not be a one-way thing. feel free to speak in English, I won't feel offended at all, or speak in esperanto, I don't care, Georges will translate it.<br />
<br />
Please I really want to hear your thoughts, don't be shy, I mean there is nothing wrong, I don't know enough about this remember, I want the questions, I want answers. And I don't think we will all gonna get answers here. So if you have something, tell me.... Come on, you're french, you have an opinion on everything!<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' I'm sorry for my English which is very poor, I just have a question about, when you said that people which are ill can share about their illness and they try to share their illness, have you got some example of sharing medicines, how can it be possible with the pharmaceutical industry?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' You mean actually sharing actual medicines? Actual tablets?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Or advices, everything, you know...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' There are a lot of communities on the internet, very very simple searches will find, there is one called "Crohnology" (https://crohnology.com/) which is for a disease called Crohn's disease, there is a website called "PatientsLikeMe" (https://www.patientslikeme.com/), which actually allows you to find other people who may have same common illness, see what happens is, if I have an illness that's very difficult to treat, then I'm looking for answers. And maybe my doctor can't give me all the answers, so I look for other people with similar illness, right? And internet allows me now to meet people of similar interests, or similar goals right? So we can share information, so there are good things in here, it gives me solice, I mean it gives me like comfort knowing that somebody else has similar things and can maybe give me some words of wisdom or some advice.<br />
<br />
There is a danger also, and the danger is that we could be giving each other wrong advice, right? And this is where the medical profession is kind of ??, should people be out there be dispensing advice to each other, or giving each other, god forbid, give some medicines actually, without advice you know, "you have to drink hot water with something, because it works I swear it works!", right? And people do that, and you find that the correct thing is not being treated, so there is danger also in it.<br />
<br />
Some of these groups have actually become very active, and have become very effective, they're very good, I think. I don't know the answer, I am torn between this notion of people know what is best for them, and then every day I see stupid things, people doing stupid things and I wonder they don't know what is best for them, you know. I don't know the answer to that, I thing there has to be some balance.<br />
<br />
You heard of 23andMe (https://www.23andme.com)? It is a company in San Francisco and you give them 99 dollars and they will mail you a little kit and you rub some saliva on it, you mail it back to them and they will decode your DNA, and make it accessible to you over the Web. 99 bucks, what a deal! Sometimes they have a two-for-one, you and your friend, only for one price. The problem was, that they were initially claiming that "we will show you your DNA, and you can then find out problems about potentially diseases", so maybe you look at that on the you realize "Oh my god, I have something which makes me in 9O% likely to get breast cancer"<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' They assume, that you can read your DNA. I can that with my DNA, I will understand something.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, they claimed they'll make it easy to understand. But the problem was that that was like giving diagnostic advice, and it hasn't been like that, because there are rules about, because then it becomes a medical device that you're selling, and you're diagnosing something. So there is one thing to do something which is educational or entertainment or whatever, another thing saying it's medicine, because it's governed by certain laws. Well there is things people fell on both sides, some people say they want to know, do you have a right to know everything about yourself? I mean that's a big question, right?<br />
<br />
== 35'35 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Thank you for the talk. For me, there is something to do with Wikipedia structure, we need at least three levels of comprehension for everybody, for engineering specialists and for scientists which have a tool to understand very high level of the insides, not everybody has the education to understand, you have this responsibility to make all answers as we can the complexity understandable for everybody, and this is an obligation I think for openness to make as well as we can the complexity...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' On Wikipedia?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Wikipedia is a good example...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I've no argument to that, I think it's a very good goal to have, I don't know who's gonna have to do that, it's expensive to explain things, it takes a lot of time to... Simple things are hard, to make something simple is very, very hard, and a lot of people are getting paid a lot of money to make things simple, so I don't know who's gonna do it but I agree with you, I've no problem with that.<br />
<br />
== 37'45 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Come on... Nothing? I'm sorry I have more questions than answers, but this is a topic that...<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Do you know if the current review boards in the United States and France are actually considering this question and thinking about how to involve this kind of citizen science?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no. Well I don't know anything about France at all, but definitely in the US no. Citizen science is popular, but it's not still mainstream that has entered the realm of review boards. If a project is constructed in a way that is a conventional project, maybe I’m a scientist in the university, and I’m going to involve a lot of citizens in there, then I'll probably have to go to an institution review board, and it will judge my project, but not because it's citizen science necessarily, but more because it happens to be a scientific project that involves human beings. There are certainly not thinking about, as far as I know, about ongoing monitoring of projects and how the behaviour of citizens amongst themselves and on other citizens, how would that be impacted. As far as I know, no, and this is very new. And this notion, there is an increased conversation about this notion of social contract, that we have some responsibility, toward each other, and also the researcher has a responsibility toward the person being studied, and vice-versa, like for example if I go to a hospital, and I'm going to be treated for say, high blood pressure, hypertension or something, do I have an obligation to make my information available for the benefit of others? Because I am benefiting from the knowledge of others. So that conversation about social contracts has started but it's very, very much in the beginning. Nobody as far as I know knows anything about what such a contract would look like.<br />
<br />
== 40'30 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' J'essaie en anglais ou quelqu'un peut traduire ? En fait, c'est une question, peut-être, qui fâche. De quoi vous vivez ? Qui vous paie ? et est-ce que c'est le gouvernement américain is helping association like Creative Commons, and who pays you to do this? Because from my eyes you're the incarnation of general interest and as a French citizen I’m asking myself which organization, and I hope you will answer me American government is paying you?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' No, sure? <br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' American government is not paying me.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Or federal government? Californian, you're from San Francisco...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK, I used to work at Creative Commons, I don't work at Creative Commons now, so not only is Creative Commons not paying me, not only is American government not paying, actually no one is paying me because I'm jobless, I'm actually looking for a job. I'm jobless and homeless.<br />
<br />
So the second question I think you eluded that American government was paying Creative Commons, no American government is not paying Creative Commons. Creative Commons is a non profit organization founded by foundations, philanthropic foundations, American government has no hand in anything. American government does fund science projects like any countries government fund science projects in that country, higher than such projects you know there are organizations like National Health, National science foundation, and they give grants to universities, and universities give them to scientists who their projects, so in the end I guess the money comes from American government, American government gets money from me, because I'm a tax payer, unless you are in Greece or somewhere, most people pay taxes. And when you pay taxes, that's what the government gets. I understand in France you pay a lot of taxes, right, and in return you get a lot of things. So that's really what happens. Did I answer your question?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK. Just to be clear, I don't work for anyone, I'm independent contractor working for myself. I’ve no boss, which is a very good thing.<br />
<br />
'''Georges:''' Still a few minutes left, so if somebody has another question?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Anything else? Ask me anything.<br />
<br />
== 43'49 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' So we're working for a software which is developed by people in Europe ?? and so on, on mailing list we had some discussions that are a bit too flamatory if I can say, so we have a big discussion about code of conduct, we hit difference of culture in states in Europe, the thing is, would you say that code of conduct is a law or not?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, certainly not.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Because many people reacted to , thinking, of course it is not an official law imposed, it was the community organising itself and, but for many people reacted, in particular people from Europe reacted to this, or a group of people, as a group is trying to impose a law, and if it's a code of conduct it’s a law, and if it's a law there should be distinctions, punishments if people...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, I would say it's not a law, it is something agreed upon by a group, let's say you invite me to your house for diner, you invite all of us to your house for diner tonight, and when we come in there you say that we have to take our shoes off before entering. And I decide to not take my shoes off, you can throw me out of your house. Is that a law? No. it's just a code of conduct you've established, right? ?? like that, no there could be cultural differences, maybe in my culture it is against my honour to take off my shoes. How dare you say I should take off my shoes? Well then it becomes a problem, right? So that's always there, so no I don't think code of conduct is law, and ?? it’s a really good thing because if you can come to a conclusion, then you manage to create something without involving law. And that's the thing we're trying to get at, because lawyers are expensive and confusion etcetera. In the end of course if a legal rule is broken, the law would come in, right? I mean if I come into your house and take off my shoes and come in and everything than I steal you're cutlery something like that, then I've broken law, I committed a crime and you can report me. It may not be worth it, if I've just stolen a fork, but I've broken a law. But I personally don't think code of conduct is law, I do understand the difficulty a code of conduct cross-cultural situation because definitely the major differences between America and Europe in terms of cultural expectations.<br />
<br />
== 46'55 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:'' So what do you think about strict chairman.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Strict chairman? Very, very important. <br />
Out of time! Thank you!</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es&diff=81364Ethique et l'intégrité collecte données2018-11-06T16:42:17Z<p>JennyB : /* 23'03 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA */ ajout texte slide. relecture ok</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
<br />
'''Titre :''' Ethique et intégrité de la collecte et du partage des données - science citoyenne et autres projets d'Open Science<br />
<br />
'''Titre VO IETF=[en-US] :''' Ethics and Integrity of Data Collection and Sharing - citizen science and other open science projects<br />
<br />
'''Intervenant :''' Puneet Kishor <br />
<br />
'''Lieu :''' RMLL2015 - Beauvais<br />
<br />
'''Date :''' Juillet 2015<br />
<br />
'''Durée :''' 47'10"<br />
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'''[http://videos-cdn.rmll.info/videos2015/ubicast/web/showroom/126-ethique-et-lintegrite-de-la-collecte_1f5a/v1253b456c154lcspb36_high.webm Lien]''' vers la '''la vidéo'''<br />
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==Transcription==<br />
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==00' J'essaye, MO, cqfd93, CBA==<br />
Rencontres Mondiales du Logiciel Libre. Beauvais 2015<br />
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'''Présentateur :''' Eh bien, nous allons commencer la conférence suivante et Corinne tu es avec nous, tout va bien. Je donne la parole. Ah, votre microphone est ici. Your microphone is there. I shall not translate.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' What's that?<br />
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'''Présentateur:''' I shall not translate, because...<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' That's OK, OK.<br />
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'''Présentateur :''' Ça va pour l’anglais tout le monde ?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' I apologize, I am going to talk in English. but it will give you a chance to practice your English with me. My French is much worse than your English, you don't want me to be doing that anyway. This is going to be a very different presentation, I think, from most of the presentations you've been hearing. Most of them has been about software. This is about matter issues, bigger issues, not bigger, I don't mean more noble but bigger in terms of more complicated issues about ethics and integrity and what we can or cannot, or should or should not do.<br />
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So hopefully you will find this of interest and I will want your reactions to that. It's very good that the conservation, if I understand correctly, ended with a little bit of talk about terms of services and licenses ???, is that right? I can have got that, you now, my French is not good and my Spanish is not good and I don't know any Portuguese but I could get that much little bit.<br />
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I actually used to work for an organization called Creative Commons. How many people have heard of Creative Commons?<br />
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I am surprised that there are few people who have not heard of Creative Commons. Creative Commons is the organization that makes copyright licenses, one of which is actually [NdT:now] used by Wikipedia for everything that is published on Wikipedia. And CC licenses as they are called are Creative Commons copyright licenses, I worked at Creative Commons for three years as the manager of Science and Data policy.<br />
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So my focus is more on science and the application of licensing information to scientific data and scientific software. <br />
<br />
In this presentation I'm going to go in a slightly different but related direction.<br />
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How many people here understand what is a license?<br />
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No, no, it's easier than meaning of life. Can you tell me in very short what is a license?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Very good! A license is a permission. You can do something with my work or whatever that I have licensed. A license is a permission given in advance without knowing what you may do or not do. Think of a notice on a park, it says "You can come and sit here and enjoy the park", that's a license to enjoy the park. The person who's put the notice doesn't know who's going to enjoy the park, but it has been put there in the future for anyone to enjoy the park, that's a license.<br />
License is based upon some kind of underlying law. There is something that gives me the right to give you the permission, right? This is Pablo's computer, he gave me the permission to use his computer. If it was not his computer, he couldn't have given me per- well, he could have given me permission but wouldn't have meant anything, right? Because he doesn't have the right to give it to me. So in order for me to license something, I have to have the rights on it, that I can license.<br />
In the world of intellectual property, there is a right called Copyright Law. How many of you understand what is Copyright Law? Even generally.<br />
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==05' Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB==<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Can you tell me what is copyright law, short?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Someone else: Can you tell me what is copyright law?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Try it! No?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Copyright law is a law that gives me the first right in the benefits that I may get from things I create, OK? So if I write a poetry or if I write a song or make a film or make a Wikipedia page, I immediately get rights on it and I get the benefit or the first chance of benefiting from those. And then, based on that, I can give those rights to others and I do that using a license. If you go to any Wikipedia page or any page and if you go to the very bottom of it, terms of use, somewhere there will be written that "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply". The person who wrote this had rights, that person then gave away those rights using this license. This license was made by Creative Commons where I used to work. OK, so that's the connection. OK. Now, Let's come back to my talk.<br />
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<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 01 sur 47 mn 10 copyright law licence : end of intro--><br />
<br />
So you all are now experts in copyright law and you all are now experts in licenses. But there are things which are not covered by copyright law and if they are not covered by copyright law, I don’t have rights in it that I can license away, and if I can't do that then how does the world work? And that is the subject of my talk. As you can see I've gone beyond the Creative Commons basically.<br />
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<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 34 --><br />
=== Approving conventional science projects ===<br />
Conventional science projects, and I'm using the word "conventional" to mean the most common place science projects that happen in universities and higher research institutions, if they involve human subjects, they have to be approved. I don't know the situation in France, but I'm hundred percent sure it probably is the same as in the United States. There is some independent body that has to approve your project to ensure that you're going to treat your human subject with respect. In the United States, these bodies are called '''Institutional Review Boards''' (IRBs) <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 20 -->. When I want to make such a project <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 25 ??? il mange ses mots mais ca va --> and I want to study behavior or I want to study people and their behavior on anything, it could be a social sciences project, it could be a health project, it really doesn't matter. If humans are involved, I have to get the project approved, and the IRB which are independent bodies, they will review my project and they will ask me a lot of questions and they'll make it very difficult for me. In fact they will make sure that I'm doing everything correctly and that I am not going to do anything that will in any way harm or disrespect the humans that I'm studying. <!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 07 --> <br />
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If I am going to be getting any data from humans, I will inform them, so if I am going to be studying you, I will inform you in advance as to what I'm getting from you and you will have the option to leave the study if you want. Understood? OK.<br />
So that's a very very basic step in all science project. IRBs are like the ethical watchguards. Typically, IRBs do their review in the beginning of a project, and they review the project and then they say "yes you can do it" or "no you can't do it" or "yes you can do it but you have to make these corrections etc, etc"<br />
OK? Yeah?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 54 --><br />
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== 09'53 Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA(+son) et relu JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 55 sur 47 mn 10 relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
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If I am going too fast, let me know, I mean I know when you people talk really fast in French I can't understand. I'm learning French, I understand if you speak slow, but I can understand the same thing with English.<br />
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=== Citizen Science === <!-- Temps vidéo : 10 mn 21, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
'''But what about … Citizen Science?''' Have you heard the term Citizen Science? Has anyone here heard the term Citizen Science? George you have… no? Nobody has heard the term Citizen Science besides George? George, can you tell me what is Citizen Science? You can tell in French.<br />
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'''Public :''' C'est de la science faite par des non spécialistes, par des passionnés. By passionate people, not specialists.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, so there's several kinds of Citizen Science, typically Citizen Science involves, it does involve a specialist, say me, but then I employ, not employ as in payment, but I recruit a lot of common citizens who are not specialists to help me do the project.<br />
<br />
Have you heard of a product called "Galaxy Zoo"? Galaxy Zoo is a very famous Citizen Science project. Zooniverse is the platform on which Galaxy Zoo is based.<br />
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There's a very famous project called the Cornell Birds Survey. Every year, Cornell University in the United States does this bird survey where citizens from all over the United States for a specified period go out and count birds. And it's been going on for more than a decade. It's a very rich project, yes.<br />
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'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' I wouldn't call it Citizen Science although it does involve getting permission from the person whose computer on which you're running SETI@home, I wouldn't call it Citizen Science, I would just call it more like "distributed computing", you know, that's really what I'm doing here, OK. <br />
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'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah, exactly, and the work can be of different kinds or quality. So I can ask you all to feel a survey, or I can ask you all to complete some task for me, or I can ask you all to report me every time that your leaving, or something like that, right. I can employ your muscles, I can employ your eyes, or I can employ your brain to help me in analyze something, etc.<br />
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So, Citizen Science is becoming very popular. It's becoming very, very popular because with the advent of the Internet and particularly with the advent of something like this [NdT:mobile phone shown], which is really a very powerful computer: I mean this is more powerful than a laptop that I add about five years ago. There's a lot of things I can do: it is a GPS, it's a camera, it is all kinds of sensors, that's a light sensor. I mean this is unbelievable, right? I mean, you know... And it's in my pocket. So this is... And everyone has one. So it's allowing people to do settling signs, distributed signs. Let have a quote, that says: "... is changing the relationship between science and society by fostering more collaborative, interdisciplinary research."<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13 mn 35, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --><br />
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== 13'36 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB +son ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn37, titre de la slide --> <br />
=== How do we evaluate, approve and monitor citizen science projects ===<br />
How do we approve, evaluate and monitor some citizen science projects, that's the theme of my presentation.<br />
<br />
==== Three kinds of open projects ====<br />
<br />
There are three kinds of projects according to a paper that I found. <br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn47, sous-titre de la slide : contributory --> <br />
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Projects where citizens '''contribute''' some information, projects where they actually not just contribute some information, but they also help '''collaborate''' and help design or even analyze some information. Galaxy Zoo has a sort of that doc, you actually see some information and you tell whether it's a star or a nebula or... You know, you actually do something, you think about something and you make a judgment call.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn23, sous-titre de la slide : Co-created --> <br />
And then the various sort of the top end of Citizen Science projects would be where scientists and citizens get together and try and figure out what to study.<br />
<br />
There is actually another fourth kind of citizen science project that's happening a lot: '''self-organized'''. <!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn39, sous-titre de la slide : self-organized --> How many here have heard the term quantified-self? Can you tell me what's quantified-self?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn52 --><br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible <!-- Temps vidéo : 15mn07 --><br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, kind of. For example my phone has a motion sensor. Every time I walk it counts the number of steps I walked. And it basically allows me to keep track of how many steps I've walked and if I go here and click on a button, it'll tell me that today I've walked five thousand steps. Five thousands one hundred and five, which actually is not a lot, I should be walking twice as much more. It also tells me that I've climbed two floors, so I haven't done much climbing today.<br />
<br />
But quantified-self is, I mean it could be anything, it could be how much you walk, it could be taking your blood pressure on a daily basis, it could be measuring your heartbeat on a daily basis, and there are people, there is a very weird place in this world, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's called San Francisco, where people are obsessed with this kind of stuff, and there are constantly measuring everything about themselves. They've got like you know, they just get stuck everywhere and they are just measuring everything, which is why I run away from there and I came to Paris, where nobody seems to be obsessed by it at all. But, that's quantified-self. <!-- Temps vidéo : 16mn19 --><br />
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But people are taking this quantification further into analysis, and people are grouping their data together and trying to figure out what's wrong with them, trying to cure diseases, people who have certain kinds of diseases are building websites where they can collaborate and talk to each other and say "hey, you know, this is happening to me, is it happening to you also? I get headaches when I drink red wine, do you get headaches when you drink red wine also?". Things like that they are doing, right? These are sort of self-organized scientific projects that are happening.<br />
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So then these projects are happening outside conventional academies, they are not happening at the universities, they are not happening at Université Marie Curie, they are not happening at Stanford University, they are just happening at, just people, meeting together and doing these things, right? Who monitors these projects?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15 --><br />
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== 17'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15, relecture son JennyB, 6 nov 2018 --> <br />
'''How do we approve non-conventional projects?''' <br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn18, titre de la slide, avec 4 puces qu'on devrait faire resortir (mise en forme) :<br />
citizen science, sensors, self-measurement (quantified self), participants led research (PLR) lu à 18mn15 --> <br />
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So, the thing that I want to ask about is, and actually I'm going to ask you a lot of question, I'm not gonna provide any answers.<br />
The thing that I'm really asking about is: how do we approve non-conventional projects?<br />
<br />
If you decide to do a study on yourself, maybe you are taking samples out of your body, and measuring them or something. Is that ethical? Is it ethical to harm yourself? I mean the society says no. It is illegal to commit suicide. In many societies at least, in many societies. So the issue really becomes how do we evaluate and monitor projects that lie outside things that are governed by law?<br />
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<!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn15 --> <br />
Citizen science, sensors, self-measurement, participant led research, that's one of the big things that are very popular. As I mentioned people have certain diseases and they make a website where people of same disease can come together and share their experiences. You know, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease, different kinds of cancers, a lot of people want, they want somewhat comfort in a community, right? And they are sometimes giving each other advice and they are doing it outside the mechanism of medicine and health laws and the institutions. <!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn57, titre de la slide : substitute for IRBs ? --> <br />
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So what is the substitute for IRBs in this question, that's something that I'm thinking about.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 19mn04, titre de la slide : what about ongoing monitoring --><br />
=== What about ongoing monitoring ===<br />
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== 19'04 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
: On the slide '''What about ongoing monitoring?''', six items<br />
:: - Collecting data on others<br />
:: - (Mis-)Reporting Data<br />
:: - Damaging Irreplaceable Evidence<br />
:: - Invading Privacy of Others<br />
:: - Balancing Orivacy and Honesty<br />
:: - Giving Credit<br />
<br />
And what about ongoing monitoring? Even if you approve such a project, even if there is, even if you set up a system where you can approve some kind of projects that's going on, how do you monitor it on an ongoing basis? Where people are doing things like they may be collecting data on others, what if I'm collecting data on you and misreport it? I tell something bad about you or I tell something good about myself that doesn't exist. You know, what if I recruit all of you to measure water samples from your village wells, and you find that it's not very good, and you decide not to report it, right? So these are the issues. Or you find that somebody else's well is not very good, and that person hasn't reported. Should you tell on that person, that person hasn't reported, you know, because then there's the issue of privacy that comes in.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 20mn04 --> <br />
<br />
So '''invading privacy of others''', if there's a citizen science project let's say, let's say I recruited all of you because I'm studying nesting habits of certain kinds of birds; And you all are bird lovers and I've recruited all of you, and you are supposed to go to the nests of the birds and take photographs and bring them back to me. Turns out that you're also a collector of eggs, and you steal the eggs, right? That's the issue so harming existing data or harming natural environment or culture property, these are the issues when there is no mechanism for ongoing monitoring that might exist in a more conventional academy.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 20mn49 --><br />
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== 20'49 transcrit par Cpm, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
<br />
=== Legal tools are… ===<br />
So the reality is that legal tools that exist such as copyright law, etc, are inadequate,<br />
they either don't exist, and if they exist, they are inadequate, they are inappropriate, they are expensive, nobody likes lawyers, lawyers are expensive and they are confusing, and they really scare us.<br />
I mean you know, how many of you have ever been to a court? No one.<br />
And a lot of people will never go to a court in their normal lives.<br />
I mean a normal life, doesn't involve lawyers.<br />
And it doesn't involve courts and yet our life is ruled by laws.<br />
Right? So, it's an interesting thing that we have all these laws and yet laws don't really, you know, come in to play in our life on a daily basis.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 21mn41 --> <br />
<br />
<br />
: On the slide Legal tools are…, five items<br />
:: - Inadequate<br />
:: - Inappropriate<br />
:: - Expensive<br />
:: - Complicated<br />
:: - Fear-Driven<br />
<br />
: Sur l'écran "Le recours aux outils de la Loi sont…" cinq points :<br />
:: - Inadéquation<br />
:: - Inapproprié<br />
:: - Cher (coûteux)<br />
:: - Compliqué<br />
:: - Guidé par/génère de la peur<br />
<br />
== 21'41 transcrit par Cpm, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
Slide 14/19 '''Do no evil'''<br />
<br />
So, one solution could be do no evil. You eared that one, right?<br />
Do you know evil?<br />
That hasn't gone very well. <!-- Temps vidéo : 21mn52, point de la slide 14 --> <br />
There is a big company that has this, think all do no evil.<br />
And they have done even evil up there.<br />
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=== Slide 15/19 : Respect and social contract. Can good behavior and a sense of community work? ===<br />
<br />
So, maybe, <!-- Temps vidéo : 22mn01 --> the thing that I, I'm thinking quite a bit about, is about just mutual respect and social contract.<br />
So how many of you have eared the term social contract? "Contrat social", here we go, french, yeah, Rousseau, yeah.<br />
So this is notion that we give up something to get something. Right?<br />
We, individuals, when we become member of a society or a country, we give up some of our individual freedoms, in return for the safety and other things that the society provide.<br />
That's the social contract, right?<br />
I'll be a citizen of France and France will look after me, that kind of a thing. Did somebody laugh ?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes because maybe too much.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah. But anyway, that's the notion of social contract.<br />
This notion that there is something that bind all of the groups together.<br />
<br />
== 23'03 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
: On the slide 16 '''Good behaviour by another name''' 5 items<br />
:: - Code of conduct<br />
:: - Social contract<br />
:: - Hippocratic oath<br />
:: - Honor Code<br />
:: - Respect<br />
<br />
So, here are different names for good behavior. You know, a lot of conferences nowadays have this thing called "code of conduct". And of course social contract, doctors have this thing called Hippocratic oath, you know the little Rx, you know "I'll never harm anyone, bla bla bla etc", we have something called "honor code university", I don't know if you have that here? In the United States there's a honor code that you will not cheat, like we can get exams where you take the exam to your home, and you bring it back two or three days later but it's a honor code that you will not ask someone else, you know. Mutual respect…<br />
So what I'm saying is interestingly there are things they may not always work, but there are things out there which are not based in law. And they are designed to make communities work, OK? So can something like this be used or maybe a combination of these things be used?<br />
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== 24'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Importance of data integrity'''<br />
<br />
One issue that becomes very important that I'm really interested in is the notion of data integrity. <br />
<br />
This thing [holding his phone] is telling me that I walked five thousand one hundred and five steps today. What if it's over-reporting? What if it's under-reporting? I don't know. Should I just believe it? We go to live believing a lot of things, not questioning them, right? Until we get some other evidence to the contrary.<br />
<br />
There is a lot of focus in this conference and in my life, I work at creative cons as I said, on open license, right? First of all I guarantee you ninety percent of the people don't know what an open license means when they say "open license". OK, fair enough. Like people don't know what organic means, but they shop organic food, right?<br />
<br />
Open is good, but is not a substitute for good science, 'cause in the end science is asking certain questions, and that is more important than anything. What would you rather? Open but crappy science, closed but good science? If you're a scientist you would probably choose good science, because a scientist is motivated by answering questions. By finding insights of something.<br />
<br />
So the question, and this is particularly useful not so much in software, but in hardware. Open hardware. What if the design is open but the data coming out of the hardware are bad? So let's say I make a hardware, I made some fantastic sensor, you know like the Star Wars tricorder it can measure everything, and I publish it under an open license, right? And you come in, you see that, you like it, you take it down, you're a great guy, we are not very honest. You take my open design and you make some changes to it, or you maybe cut some corners and make something which has license opened but now is not producing right data. And what if this thing was measuring something that was important for environmental health or public health, maybe reporting on air quality, maybe reporting on water quality? there could be serious consequences for public health.<br />
<br />
So the issue of data integrity is very important which has nothing to do with licensing, but it's very important for open science and the quality of science.<br />
<br />
== 26'55 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Evaluating data integrity'''<br />
<br />
So, there is a study that I found where they found many ways in which you can actually evaluate data integrity. <br />
<br />
By the way, all my ??? talk is on my website and, no software's required, just a browser, just click you know, it's a program I wrote and so it's available to anyone. So you can see all the links are there.<br />
<br />
So you can measure different... Think of these like vectors along which you can measure data integrity. Is the data accessible, believable, complete, consistent, relevant, secure, etc. There is many things you can measure, you can add more to this or subtract from this. They are dimensions that you can measure.<br />
<br />
Building can do as look a reputation, or think of it like social capital. This is very common on web communities, right? How many likes for example, or how many re-tweets, this is one example of some kind of trust and something. We have reputation scores in communities that are software, particularly software communities well you know, there is someone who's answered a lot of questions. Has people used Stackoverflow? Stackoverflow has the reputation, all has this reputation system basically, and as your reputation grows more you can do more things, etc.<br />
So that's sort like trust across social networks, and what I call co-calibration where you can take yourself and calibrate yourself against someone else, or take a piece of hardware and calibrate a against a non-truth, maybe a reference hardware. So, that's another way for evaluating data integrity.<br />
<br />
The bottom line is that there are mechanisms out there for making our lives run in a community fashion, without involving law. What are some of those mechanisms that can be taken together or combined into something that can be used to evaluate and monitor open science projects. And this is the thing that I actually find the most interesting right now and sort of my post-license world of work.<br />
<br />
== 29'37 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
That's all the talk I have. I think I have a lot of time left, right?<br />
So, I really want people to speak up and give their thoughts and, you know, that's not be a one-way thing. feel free to speak in English, I won't feel offended at all, or speak in esperanto, I don't care, Georges will translate it.<br />
<br />
Please I really want to hear your thoughts, don't be shy, I mean there is nothing wrong, I don't know enough about this remember, I want the questions, I want answers. And I don't think we will all gonna get answers here. So if you have something, tell me.... Come on, you're french, you have an opinion on everything!<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' I'm sorry for my English which is very poor, I just have a question about, when you said that people which are ill can share about their illness and they try to share their illness, have you got some example of sharing medicines, how can it be possible with the pharmaceutical industry?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' You mean actually sharing actual medicines? Actual tablets?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Or advices, everything, you know...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' There are a lot of communities on the internet, very very simple searches will find, there is one called "Crohnology" (https://crohnology.com/) which is for a disease called Crohn's disease, there is a website called "PatientsLikeMe" (https://www.patientslikeme.com/), which actually allows you to find other people who may have same common illness, see what happens is, if I have an illness that's very difficult to treat, then I'm looking for answers. And maybe my doctor can't give me all the answers, so I look for other people with similar illness, right? And internet allows me now to meet people of similar interests, or similar goals right? So we can share information, so there are good things in here, it gives me solice, I mean it gives me like comfort knowing that somebody else has similar things and can maybe give me some words of wisdom or some advice.<br />
<br />
There is a danger also, and the danger is that we could be giving each other wrong advice, right? And this is where the medical profession is kind of ??, should people be out there be dispensing advice to each other, or giving each other, god forbid, give some medicines actually, without advice you know, "you have to drink hot water with something, because it works I swear it works!", right? And people do that, and you find that the correct thing is not being treated, so there is danger also in it.<br />
<br />
Some of these groups have actually become very active, and have become very effective, they're very good, I think. I don't know the answer, I am torn between this notion of people know what is best for them, and then every day I see stupid things, people doing stupid things and I wonder they don't know what is best for them, you know. I don't know the answer to that, I thing there has to be some balance.<br />
<br />
You heard of 23andMe (https://www.23andme.com)? It is a company in San Francisco and you give them 99 dollars and they will mail you a little kit and you rub some saliva on it, you mail it back to them and they will decode your DNA, and make it accessible to you over the Web. 99 bucks, what a deal! Sometimes they have a two-for-one, you and your friend, only for one price. The problem was, that they were initially claiming that "we will show you your DNA, and you can then find out problems about potentially diseases", so maybe you look at that on the you realize "Oh my god, I have something which makes me in 9O% likely to get breast cancer"<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' They assume, that you can read your DNA. I can that with my DNA, I will understand something.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, they claimed they'll make it easy to understand. But the problem was that that was like giving diagnostic advice, and it hasn't been like that, because there are rules about, because then it becomes a medical device that you're selling, and you're diagnosing something. So there is one thing to do something which is educational or entertainment or whatever, another thing saying it's medicine, because it's governed by certain laws. Well there is things people fell on both sides, some people say they want to know, do you have a right to know everything about yourself? I mean that's a big question, right?<br />
<br />
== 35'35 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Thank you for the talk. For me, there is something to do with Wikipedia structure, we need at least three levels of comprehension for everybody, for engineering specialists and for scientists which have a tool to understand very high level of the insides, not everybody has the education to understand, you have this responsibility to make all answers as we can the complexity understandable for everybody, and this is an obligation I think for openness to make as well as we can the complexity...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' On Wikipedia?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Wikipedia is a good example...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I've no argument to that, I think it's a very good goal to have, I don't know who's gonna have to do that, it's expensive to explain things, it takes a lot of time to... Simple things are hard, to make something simple is very, very hard, and a lot of people are getting paid a lot of money to make things simple, so I don't know who's gonna do it but I agree with you, I've no problem with that.<br />
<br />
== 37'45 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Come on... Nothing? I'm sorry I have more questions than answers, but this is a topic that...<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Do you know if the current review boards in the United States and France are actually considering this question and thinking about how to involve this kind of citizen science?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no. Well I don't know anything about France at all, but definitely in the US no. Citizen science is popular, but it's not still mainstream that has entered the realm of review boards. If a project is constructed in a way that is a conventional project, maybe I’m a scientist in the university, and I’m going to involve a lot of citizens in there, then I'll probably have to go to an institution review board, and it will judge my project, but not because it's citizen science necessarily, but more because it happens to be a scientific project that involves human beings. There are certainly not thinking about, as far as I know, about ongoing monitoring of projects and how the behaviour of citizens amongst themselves and on other citizens, how would that be impacted. As far as I know, no, and this is very new. And this notion, there is an increased conversation about this notion of social contract, that we have some responsibility, toward each other, and also the researcher has a responsibility toward the person being studied, and vice-versa, like for example if I go to a hospital, and I'm going to be treated for say, high blood pressure, hypertension or something, do I have an obligation to make my information available for the benefit of others? Because I am benefiting from the knowledge of others. So that conversation about social contracts has started but it's very, very much in the beginning. Nobody as far as I know knows anything about what such a contract would look like.<br />
<br />
== 40'30 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' J'essaie en anglais ou quelqu'un peut traduire ? En fait, c'est une question, peut-être, qui fâche. De quoi vous vivez ? Qui vous paie ? et est-ce que c'est le gouvernement américain is helping association like Creative Commons, and who pays you to do this? Because from my eyes you're the incarnation of general interest and as a French citizen I’m asking myself which organization, and I hope you will answer me American government is paying you?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' No, sure? <br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' American government is not paying me.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Or federal government? Californian, you're from San Francisco...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK, I used to work at Creative Commons, I don't work at Creative Commons now, so not only is Creative Commons not paying me, not only is American government not paying, actually no one is paying me because I'm jobless, I'm actually looking for a job. I'm jobless and homeless.<br />
<br />
So the second question I think you eluded that American government was paying Creative Commons, no American government is not paying Creative Commons. Creative Commons is a non profit organization founded by foundations, philanthropic foundations, American government has no hand in anything. American government does fund science projects like any countries government fund science projects in that country, higher than such projects you know there are organizations like National Health, National science foundation, and they give grants to universities, and universities give them to scientists who their projects, so in the end I guess the money comes from American government, American government gets money from me, because I'm a tax payer, unless you are in Greece or somewhere, most people pay taxes. And when you pay taxes, that's what the government gets. I understand in France you pay a lot of taxes, right, and in return you get a lot of things. So that's really what happens. Did I answer your question?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK. Just to be clear, I don't work for anyone, I'm independent contractor working for myself. I’ve no boss, which is a very good thing.<br />
<br />
'''Georges:''' Still a few minutes left, so if somebody has another question?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Anything else? Ask me anything.<br />
<br />
== 43'49 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' So we're working for a software which is developed by people in Europe ?? and so on, on mailing list we had some discussions that are a bit too flamatory if I can say, so we have a big discussion about code of conduct, we hit difference of culture in states in Europe, the thing is, would you say that code of conduct is a law or not?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, certainly not.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Because many people reacted to , thinking, of course it is not an official law imposed, it was the community organising itself and, but for many people reacted, in particular people from Europe reacted to this, or a group of people, as a group is trying to impose a law, and if it's a code of conduct it’s a law, and if it's a law there should be distinctions, punishments if people...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, I would say it's not a law, it is something agreed upon by a group, let's say you invite me to your house for diner, you invite all of us to your house for diner tonight, and when we come in there you say that we have to take our shoes off before entering. And I decide to not take my shoes off, you can throw me out of your house. Is that a law? No. it's just a code of conduct you've established, right? ?? like that, no there could be cultural differences, maybe in my culture it is against my honour to take off my shoes. How dare you say I should take off my shoes? Well then it becomes a problem, right? So that's always there, so no I don't think code of conduct is law, and ?? it’s a really good thing because if you can come to a conclusion, then you manage to create something without involving law. And that's the thing we're trying to get at, because lawyers are expensive and confusion etcetera. In the end of course if a legal rule is broken, the law would come in, right? I mean if I come into your house and take off my shoes and come in and everything than I steal you're cutlery something like that, then I've broken law, I committed a crime and you can report me. It may not be worth it, if I've just stolen a fork, but I've broken a law. But I personally don't think code of conduct is law, I do understand the difficulty a code of conduct cross-cultural situation because definitely the major differences between America and Europe in terms of cultural expectations.<br />
<br />
== 46'55 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:'' So what do you think about strict chairman.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Strict chairman? Very, very important. <br />
Out of time! Thank you!</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es&diff=81363Ethique et l'intégrité collecte données2018-11-06T16:37:12Z<p>JennyB : /* 21'41 transcrit par Cpm, relu son CBA et JennyB */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
<br />
'''Titre :''' Ethique et intégrité de la collecte et du partage des données - science citoyenne et autres projets d'Open Science<br />
<br />
'''Titre VO IETF=[en-US] :''' Ethics and Integrity of Data Collection and Sharing - citizen science and other open science projects<br />
<br />
'''Intervenant :''' Puneet Kishor <br />
<br />
'''Lieu :''' RMLL2015 - Beauvais<br />
<br />
'''Date :''' Juillet 2015<br />
<br />
'''Durée :''' 47'10"<br />
<br />
'''[http://videos-cdn.rmll.info/videos2015/ubicast/web/showroom/126-ethique-et-lintegrite-de-la-collecte_1f5a/v1253b456c154lcspb36_high.webm Lien]''' vers la '''la vidéo'''<br />
<br />
==Transcription==<br />
<br />
<br />
==00' J'essaye, MO, cqfd93, CBA==<br />
Rencontres Mondiales du Logiciel Libre. Beauvais 2015<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Eh bien, nous allons commencer la conférence suivante et Corinne tu es avec nous, tout va bien. Je donne la parole. Ah, votre microphone est ici. Your microphone is there. I shall not translate.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' What's that?<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur:''' I shall not translate, because...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' That's OK, OK.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Ça va pour l’anglais tout le monde ?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I apologize, I am going to talk in English. but it will give you a chance to practice your English with me. My French is much worse than your English, you don't want me to be doing that anyway. This is going to be a very different presentation, I think, from most of the presentations you've been hearing. Most of them has been about software. This is about matter issues, bigger issues, not bigger, I don't mean more noble but bigger in terms of more complicated issues about ethics and integrity and what we can or cannot, or should or should not do.<br />
<br />
So hopefully you will find this of interest and I will want your reactions to that. It's very good that the conservation, if I understand correctly, ended with a little bit of talk about terms of services and licenses ???, is that right? I can have got that, you now, my French is not good and my Spanish is not good and I don't know any Portuguese but I could get that much little bit.<br />
<br />
I actually used to work for an organization called Creative Commons. How many people have heard of Creative Commons?<br />
<br />
I am surprised that there are few people who have not heard of Creative Commons. Creative Commons is the organization that makes copyright licenses, one of which is actually [NdT:now] used by Wikipedia for everything that is published on Wikipedia. And CC licenses as they are called are Creative Commons copyright licenses, I worked at Creative Commons for three years as the manager of Science and Data policy.<br />
<br />
So my focus is more on science and the application of licensing information to scientific data and scientific software. <br />
<br />
In this presentation I'm going to go in a slightly different but related direction.<br />
<br />
How many people here understand what is a license?<br />
<br />
No, no, it's easier than meaning of life. Can you tell me in very short what is a license?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Very good! A license is a permission. You can do something with my work or whatever that I have licensed. A license is a permission given in advance without knowing what you may do or not do. Think of a notice on a park, it says "You can come and sit here and enjoy the park", that's a license to enjoy the park. The person who's put the notice doesn't know who's going to enjoy the park, but it has been put there in the future for anyone to enjoy the park, that's a license.<br />
License is based upon some kind of underlying law. There is something that gives me the right to give you the permission, right? This is Pablo's computer, he gave me the permission to use his computer. If it was not his computer, he couldn't have given me per- well, he could have given me permission but wouldn't have meant anything, right? Because he doesn't have the right to give it to me. So in order for me to license something, I have to have the rights on it, that I can license.<br />
In the world of intellectual property, there is a right called Copyright Law. How many of you understand what is Copyright Law? Even generally.<br />
<br />
==05' Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Can you tell me what is copyright law, short?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Someone else: Can you tell me what is copyright law?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Try it! No?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Copyright law is a law that gives me the first right in the benefits that I may get from things I create, OK? So if I write a poetry or if I write a song or make a film or make a Wikipedia page, I immediately get rights on it and I get the benefit or the first chance of benefiting from those. And then, based on that, I can give those rights to others and I do that using a license. If you go to any Wikipedia page or any page and if you go to the very bottom of it, terms of use, somewhere there will be written that "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply". The person who wrote this had rights, that person then gave away those rights using this license. This license was made by Creative Commons where I used to work. OK, so that's the connection. OK. Now, Let's come back to my talk.<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 01 sur 47 mn 10 copyright law licence : end of intro--><br />
<br />
So you all are now experts in copyright law and you all are now experts in licenses. But there are things which are not covered by copyright law and if they are not covered by copyright law, I don’t have rights in it that I can license away, and if I can't do that then how does the world work? And that is the subject of my talk. As you can see I've gone beyond the Creative Commons basically.<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 34 --><br />
=== Approving conventional science projects ===<br />
Conventional science projects, and I'm using the word "conventional" to mean the most common place science projects that happen in universities and higher research institutions, if they involve human subjects, they have to be approved. I don't know the situation in France, but I'm hundred percent sure it probably is the same as in the United States. There is some independent body that has to approve your project to ensure that you're going to treat your human subject with respect. In the United States, these bodies are called '''Institutional Review Boards''' (IRBs) <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 20 -->. When I want to make such a project <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 25 ??? il mange ses mots mais ca va --> and I want to study behavior or I want to study people and their behavior on anything, it could be a social sciences project, it could be a health project, it really doesn't matter. If humans are involved, I have to get the project approved, and the IRB which are independent bodies, they will review my project and they will ask me a lot of questions and they'll make it very difficult for me. In fact they will make sure that I'm doing everything correctly and that I am not going to do anything that will in any way harm or disrespect the humans that I'm studying. <!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 07 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going to be getting any data from humans, I will inform them, so if I am going to be studying you, I will inform you in advance as to what I'm getting from you and you will have the option to leave the study if you want. Understood? OK.<br />
So that's a very very basic step in all science project. IRBs are like the ethical watchguards. Typically, IRBs do their review in the beginning of a project, and they review the project and then they say "yes you can do it" or "no you can't do it" or "yes you can do it but you have to make these corrections etc, etc"<br />
OK? Yeah?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 54 --><br />
<br />
== 09'53 Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA(+son) et relu JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 55 sur 47 mn 10 relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going too fast, let me know, I mean I know when you people talk really fast in French I can't understand. I'm learning French, I understand if you speak slow, but I can understand the same thing with English.<br />
<br />
=== Citizen Science === <!-- Temps vidéo : 10 mn 21, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
'''But what about … Citizen Science?''' Have you heard the term Citizen Science? Has anyone here heard the term Citizen Science? George you have… no? Nobody has heard the term Citizen Science besides George? George, can you tell me what is Citizen Science? You can tell in French.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' C'est de la science faite par des non spécialistes, par des passionnés. By passionate people, not specialists.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, so there's several kinds of Citizen Science, typically Citizen Science involves, it does involve a specialist, say me, but then I employ, not employ as in payment, but I recruit a lot of common citizens who are not specialists to help me do the project.<br />
<br />
Have you heard of a product called "Galaxy Zoo"? Galaxy Zoo is a very famous Citizen Science project. Zooniverse is the platform on which Galaxy Zoo is based.<br />
<br />
There's a very famous project called the Cornell Birds Survey. Every year, Cornell University in the United States does this bird survey where citizens from all over the United States for a specified period go out and count birds. And it's been going on for more than a decade. It's a very rich project, yes.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I wouldn't call it Citizen Science although it does involve getting permission from the person whose computer on which you're running SETI@home, I wouldn't call it Citizen Science, I would just call it more like "distributed computing", you know, that's really what I'm doing here, OK. <br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah, exactly, and the work can be of different kinds or quality. So I can ask you all to feel a survey, or I can ask you all to complete some task for me, or I can ask you all to report me every time that your leaving, or something like that, right. I can employ your muscles, I can employ your eyes, or I can employ your brain to help me in analyze something, etc.<br />
<br />
So, Citizen Science is becoming very popular. It's becoming very, very popular because with the advent of the Internet and particularly with the advent of something like this [NdT:mobile phone shown], which is really a very powerful computer: I mean this is more powerful than a laptop that I add about five years ago. There's a lot of things I can do: it is a GPS, it's a camera, it is all kinds of sensors, that's a light sensor. I mean this is unbelievable, right? I mean, you know... And it's in my pocket. So this is... And everyone has one. So it's allowing people to do settling signs, distributed signs. Let have a quote, that says: "... is changing the relationship between science and society by fostering more collaborative, interdisciplinary research."<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13 mn 35, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --><br />
<br />
== 13'36 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB +son ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn37, titre de la slide --> <br />
=== How do we evaluate, approve and monitor citizen science projects ===<br />
How do we approve, evaluate and monitor some citizen science projects, that's the theme of my presentation.<br />
<br />
==== Three kinds of open projects ====<br />
<br />
There are three kinds of projects according to a paper that I found. <br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn47, sous-titre de la slide : contributory --> <br />
<br />
Projects where citizens '''contribute''' some information, projects where they actually not just contribute some information, but they also help '''collaborate''' and help design or even analyze some information. Galaxy Zoo has a sort of that doc, you actually see some information and you tell whether it's a star or a nebula or... You know, you actually do something, you think about something and you make a judgment call.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn23, sous-titre de la slide : Co-created --> <br />
And then the various sort of the top end of Citizen Science projects would be where scientists and citizens get together and try and figure out what to study.<br />
<br />
There is actually another fourth kind of citizen science project that's happening a lot: '''self-organized'''. <!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn39, sous-titre de la slide : self-organized --> How many here have heard the term quantified-self? Can you tell me what's quantified-self?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn52 --><br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible <!-- Temps vidéo : 15mn07 --><br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, kind of. For example my phone has a motion sensor. Every time I walk it counts the number of steps I walked. And it basically allows me to keep track of how many steps I've walked and if I go here and click on a button, it'll tell me that today I've walked five thousand steps. Five thousands one hundred and five, which actually is not a lot, I should be walking twice as much more. It also tells me that I've climbed two floors, so I haven't done much climbing today.<br />
<br />
But quantified-self is, I mean it could be anything, it could be how much you walk, it could be taking your blood pressure on a daily basis, it could be measuring your heartbeat on a daily basis, and there are people, there is a very weird place in this world, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's called San Francisco, where people are obsessed with this kind of stuff, and there are constantly measuring everything about themselves. They've got like you know, they just get stuck everywhere and they are just measuring everything, which is why I run away from there and I came to Paris, where nobody seems to be obsessed by it at all. But, that's quantified-self. <!-- Temps vidéo : 16mn19 --><br />
<br />
But people are taking this quantification further into analysis, and people are grouping their data together and trying to figure out what's wrong with them, trying to cure diseases, people who have certain kinds of diseases are building websites where they can collaborate and talk to each other and say "hey, you know, this is happening to me, is it happening to you also? I get headaches when I drink red wine, do you get headaches when you drink red wine also?". Things like that they are doing, right? These are sort of self-organized scientific projects that are happening.<br />
<br />
So then these projects are happening outside conventional academies, they are not happening at the universities, they are not happening at Université Marie Curie, they are not happening at Stanford University, they are just happening at, just people, meeting together and doing these things, right? Who monitors these projects?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15 --><br />
<br />
== 17'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15, relecture son JennyB, 6 nov 2018 --> <br />
'''How do we approve non-conventional projects?''' <br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn18, titre de la slide, avec 4 puces qu'on devrait faire resortir (mise en forme) :<br />
citizen science, sensors, self-measurement (quantified self), participants led research (PLR) lu à 18mn15 --> <br />
<br />
So, the thing that I want to ask about is, and actually I'm going to ask you a lot of question, I'm not gonna provide any answers.<br />
The thing that I'm really asking about is: how do we approve non-conventional projects?<br />
<br />
If you decide to do a study on yourself, maybe you are taking samples out of your body, and measuring them or something. Is that ethical? Is it ethical to harm yourself? I mean the society says no. It is illegal to commit suicide. In many societies at least, in many societies. So the issue really becomes how do we evaluate and monitor projects that lie outside things that are governed by law?<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn15 --> <br />
Citizen science, sensors, self-measurement, participant led research, that's one of the big things that are very popular. As I mentioned people have certain diseases and they make a website where people of same disease can come together and share their experiences. You know, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease, different kinds of cancers, a lot of people want, they want somewhat comfort in a community, right? And they are sometimes giving each other advice and they are doing it outside the mechanism of medicine and health laws and the institutions. <!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn57, titre de la slide : substitute for IRBs ? --> <br />
<br />
So what is the substitute for IRBs in this question, that's something that I'm thinking about.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 19mn04, titre de la slide : what about ongoing monitoring --><br />
=== What about ongoing monitoring ===<br />
<br />
== 19'04 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
: On the slide '''What about ongoing monitoring?''', six items<br />
:: - Collecting data on others<br />
:: - (Mis-)Reporting Data<br />
:: - Damaging Irreplaceable Evidence<br />
:: - Invading Privacy of Others<br />
:: - Balancing Orivacy and Honesty<br />
:: - Giving Credit<br />
<br />
And what about ongoing monitoring? Even if you approve such a project, even if there is, even if you set up a system where you can approve some kind of projects that's going on, how do you monitor it on an ongoing basis? Where people are doing things like they may be collecting data on others, what if I'm collecting data on you and misreport it? I tell something bad about you or I tell something good about myself that doesn't exist. You know, what if I recruit all of you to measure water samples from your village wells, and you find that it's not very good, and you decide not to report it, right? So these are the issues. Or you find that somebody else's well is not very good, and that person hasn't reported. Should you tell on that person, that person hasn't reported, you know, because then there's the issue of privacy that comes in.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 20mn04 --> <br />
<br />
So '''invading privacy of others''', if there's a citizen science project let's say, let's say I recruited all of you because I'm studying nesting habits of certain kinds of birds; And you all are bird lovers and I've recruited all of you, and you are supposed to go to the nests of the birds and take photographs and bring them back to me. Turns out that you're also a collector of eggs, and you steal the eggs, right? That's the issue so harming existing data or harming natural environment or culture property, these are the issues when there is no mechanism for ongoing monitoring that might exist in a more conventional academy.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 20mn49 --><br />
<br />
== 20'49 transcrit par Cpm, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
<br />
=== Legal tools are… ===<br />
So the reality is that legal tools that exist such as copyright law, etc, are inadequate,<br />
they either don't exist, and if they exist, they are inadequate, they are inappropriate, they are expensive, nobody likes lawyers, lawyers are expensive and they are confusing, and they really scare us.<br />
I mean you know, how many of you have ever been to a court? No one.<br />
And a lot of people will never go to a court in their normal lives.<br />
I mean a normal life, doesn't involve lawyers.<br />
And it doesn't involve courts and yet our life is ruled by laws.<br />
Right? So, it's an interesting thing that we have all these laws and yet laws don't really, you know, come in to play in our life on a daily basis.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 21mn41 --> <br />
<br />
<br />
: On the slide Legal tools are…, five items<br />
:: - Inadequate<br />
:: - Inappropriate<br />
:: - Expensive<br />
:: - Complicated<br />
:: - Fear-Driven<br />
<br />
: Sur l'écran "Le recours aux outils de la Loi sont…" cinq points :<br />
:: - Inadéquation<br />
:: - Inapproprié<br />
:: - Cher (coûteux)<br />
:: - Compliqué<br />
:: - Guidé par/génère de la peur<br />
<br />
== 21'41 transcrit par Cpm, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
Slide 14/19 '''Do no evil'''<br />
<br />
So, one solution could be do no evil. You eared that one, right?<br />
Do you know evil?<br />
That hasn't gone very well. <!-- Temps vidéo : 21mn52, point de la slide 14 --> <br />
There is a big company that has this, think all do no evil.<br />
And they have done even evil up there.<br />
<br />
=== Slide 15/19 : Respect and social contract. Can good behavior and a sense of community work? ===<br />
<br />
So, maybe, <!-- Temps vidéo : 22mn01 --> the thing that I, I'm thinking quite a bit about, is about just mutual respect and social contract.<br />
So how many of you have eared the term social contract? "Contrat social", here we go, french, yeah, Rousseau, yeah.<br />
So this is notion that we give up something to get something. Right?<br />
We, individuals, when we become member of a society or a country, we give up some of our individual freedoms, in return for the safety and other things that the society provide.<br />
That's the social contract, right?<br />
I'll be a citizen of France and France will look after me, that kind of a thing. Did somebody laugh ?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes because maybe too much.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah. But anyway, that's the notion of social contract.<br />
This notion that there is something that bind all of the groups together.<br />
<br />
== 23'03 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Good behaviour by another name'''<br />
<br />
So, here are different names for good behavior. You know, a lot of conferences nowadays have this thing called "code of conduct". And of course social contract, doctors have this thing called Hippocratic oath, you know the little Rx, you know "I'll never harm anyone, bla bla bla etc", we have something called "honor code university", I don't know if you have that here? In the United States there's a honor code that you will not cheat, like we can get exams where you take the exam to your home, and you bring it back two or three days later but it's a honor code that you will not ask someone else, you know. Mutual respect…<br />
So what I'm saying is interestingly there are things they may not always work, but there are things out there which are not based in law. And they are designed to make communities work, OK? So can something like this be used or maybe a combination of these things be used?<br />
<br />
== 24'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Importance of data integrity'''<br />
<br />
One issue that becomes very important that I'm really interested in is the notion of data integrity. <br />
<br />
This thing [holding his phone] is telling me that I walked five thousand one hundred and five steps today. What if it's over-reporting? What if it's under-reporting? I don't know. Should I just believe it? We go to live believing a lot of things, not questioning them, right? Until we get some other evidence to the contrary.<br />
<br />
There is a lot of focus in this conference and in my life, I work at creative cons as I said, on open license, right? First of all I guarantee you ninety percent of the people don't know what an open license means when they say "open license". OK, fair enough. Like people don't know what organic means, but they shop organic food, right?<br />
<br />
Open is good, but is not a substitute for good science, 'cause in the end science is asking certain questions, and that is more important than anything. What would you rather? Open but crappy science, closed but good science? If you're a scientist you would probably choose good science, because a scientist is motivated by answering questions. By finding insights of something.<br />
<br />
So the question, and this is particularly useful not so much in software, but in hardware. Open hardware. What if the design is open but the data coming out of the hardware are bad? So let's say I make a hardware, I made some fantastic sensor, you know like the Star Wars tricorder it can measure everything, and I publish it under an open license, right? And you come in, you see that, you like it, you take it down, you're a great guy, we are not very honest. You take my open design and you make some changes to it, or you maybe cut some corners and make something which has license opened but now is not producing right data. And what if this thing was measuring something that was important for environmental health or public health, maybe reporting on air quality, maybe reporting on water quality? there could be serious consequences for public health.<br />
<br />
So the issue of data integrity is very important which has nothing to do with licensing, but it's very important for open science and the quality of science.<br />
<br />
== 26'55 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Evaluating data integrity'''<br />
<br />
So, there is a study that I found where they found many ways in which you can actually evaluate data integrity. <br />
<br />
By the way, all my ??? talk is on my website and, no software's required, just a browser, just click you know, it's a program I wrote and so it's available to anyone. So you can see all the links are there.<br />
<br />
So you can measure different... Think of these like vectors along which you can measure data integrity. Is the data accessible, believable, complete, consistent, relevant, secure, etc. There is many things you can measure, you can add more to this or subtract from this. They are dimensions that you can measure.<br />
<br />
Building can do as look a reputation, or think of it like social capital. This is very common on web communities, right? How many likes for example, or how many re-tweets, this is one example of some kind of trust and something. We have reputation scores in communities that are software, particularly software communities well you know, there is someone who's answered a lot of questions. Has people used Stackoverflow? Stackoverflow has the reputation, all has this reputation system basically, and as your reputation grows more you can do more things, etc.<br />
So that's sort like trust across social networks, and what I call co-calibration where you can take yourself and calibrate yourself against someone else, or take a piece of hardware and calibrate a against a non-truth, maybe a reference hardware. So, that's another way for evaluating data integrity.<br />
<br />
The bottom line is that there are mechanisms out there for making our lives run in a community fashion, without involving law. What are some of those mechanisms that can be taken together or combined into something that can be used to evaluate and monitor open science projects. And this is the thing that I actually find the most interesting right now and sort of my post-license world of work.<br />
<br />
== 29'37 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
That's all the talk I have. I think I have a lot of time left, right?<br />
So, I really want people to speak up and give their thoughts and, you know, that's not be a one-way thing. feel free to speak in English, I won't feel offended at all, or speak in esperanto, I don't care, Georges will translate it.<br />
<br />
Please I really want to hear your thoughts, don't be shy, I mean there is nothing wrong, I don't know enough about this remember, I want the questions, I want answers. And I don't think we will all gonna get answers here. So if you have something, tell me.... Come on, you're french, you have an opinion on everything!<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' I'm sorry for my English which is very poor, I just have a question about, when you said that people which are ill can share about their illness and they try to share their illness, have you got some example of sharing medicines, how can it be possible with the pharmaceutical industry?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' You mean actually sharing actual medicines? Actual tablets?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Or advices, everything, you know...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' There are a lot of communities on the internet, very very simple searches will find, there is one called "Crohnology" (https://crohnology.com/) which is for a disease called Crohn's disease, there is a website called "PatientsLikeMe" (https://www.patientslikeme.com/), which actually allows you to find other people who may have same common illness, see what happens is, if I have an illness that's very difficult to treat, then I'm looking for answers. And maybe my doctor can't give me all the answers, so I look for other people with similar illness, right? And internet allows me now to meet people of similar interests, or similar goals right? So we can share information, so there are good things in here, it gives me solice, I mean it gives me like comfort knowing that somebody else has similar things and can maybe give me some words of wisdom or some advice.<br />
<br />
There is a danger also, and the danger is that we could be giving each other wrong advice, right? And this is where the medical profession is kind of ??, should people be out there be dispensing advice to each other, or giving each other, god forbid, give some medicines actually, without advice you know, "you have to drink hot water with something, because it works I swear it works!", right? And people do that, and you find that the correct thing is not being treated, so there is danger also in it.<br />
<br />
Some of these groups have actually become very active, and have become very effective, they're very good, I think. I don't know the answer, I am torn between this notion of people know what is best for them, and then every day I see stupid things, people doing stupid things and I wonder they don't know what is best for them, you know. I don't know the answer to that, I thing there has to be some balance.<br />
<br />
You heard of 23andMe (https://www.23andme.com)? It is a company in San Francisco and you give them 99 dollars and they will mail you a little kit and you rub some saliva on it, you mail it back to them and they will decode your DNA, and make it accessible to you over the Web. 99 bucks, what a deal! Sometimes they have a two-for-one, you and your friend, only for one price. The problem was, that they were initially claiming that "we will show you your DNA, and you can then find out problems about potentially diseases", so maybe you look at that on the you realize "Oh my god, I have something which makes me in 9O% likely to get breast cancer"<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' They assume, that you can read your DNA. I can that with my DNA, I will understand something.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, they claimed they'll make it easy to understand. But the problem was that that was like giving diagnostic advice, and it hasn't been like that, because there are rules about, because then it becomes a medical device that you're selling, and you're diagnosing something. So there is one thing to do something which is educational or entertainment or whatever, another thing saying it's medicine, because it's governed by certain laws. Well there is things people fell on both sides, some people say they want to know, do you have a right to know everything about yourself? I mean that's a big question, right?<br />
<br />
== 35'35 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Thank you for the talk. For me, there is something to do with Wikipedia structure, we need at least three levels of comprehension for everybody, for engineering specialists and for scientists which have a tool to understand very high level of the insides, not everybody has the education to understand, you have this responsibility to make all answers as we can the complexity understandable for everybody, and this is an obligation I think for openness to make as well as we can the complexity...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' On Wikipedia?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Wikipedia is a good example...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I've no argument to that, I think it's a very good goal to have, I don't know who's gonna have to do that, it's expensive to explain things, it takes a lot of time to... Simple things are hard, to make something simple is very, very hard, and a lot of people are getting paid a lot of money to make things simple, so I don't know who's gonna do it but I agree with you, I've no problem with that.<br />
<br />
== 37'45 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Come on... Nothing? I'm sorry I have more questions than answers, but this is a topic that...<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Do you know if the current review boards in the United States and France are actually considering this question and thinking about how to involve this kind of citizen science?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no. Well I don't know anything about France at all, but definitely in the US no. Citizen science is popular, but it's not still mainstream that has entered the realm of review boards. If a project is constructed in a way that is a conventional project, maybe I’m a scientist in the university, and I’m going to involve a lot of citizens in there, then I'll probably have to go to an institution review board, and it will judge my project, but not because it's citizen science necessarily, but more because it happens to be a scientific project that involves human beings. There are certainly not thinking about, as far as I know, about ongoing monitoring of projects and how the behaviour of citizens amongst themselves and on other citizens, how would that be impacted. As far as I know, no, and this is very new. And this notion, there is an increased conversation about this notion of social contract, that we have some responsibility, toward each other, and also the researcher has a responsibility toward the person being studied, and vice-versa, like for example if I go to a hospital, and I'm going to be treated for say, high blood pressure, hypertension or something, do I have an obligation to make my information available for the benefit of others? Because I am benefiting from the knowledge of others. So that conversation about social contracts has started but it's very, very much in the beginning. Nobody as far as I know knows anything about what such a contract would look like.<br />
<br />
== 40'30 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' J'essaie en anglais ou quelqu'un peut traduire ? En fait, c'est une question, peut-être, qui fâche. De quoi vous vivez ? Qui vous paie ? et est-ce que c'est le gouvernement américain is helping association like Creative Commons, and who pays you to do this? Because from my eyes you're the incarnation of general interest and as a French citizen I’m asking myself which organization, and I hope you will answer me American government is paying you?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' No, sure? <br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' American government is not paying me.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Or federal government? Californian, you're from San Francisco...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK, I used to work at Creative Commons, I don't work at Creative Commons now, so not only is Creative Commons not paying me, not only is American government not paying, actually no one is paying me because I'm jobless, I'm actually looking for a job. I'm jobless and homeless.<br />
<br />
So the second question I think you eluded that American government was paying Creative Commons, no American government is not paying Creative Commons. Creative Commons is a non profit organization founded by foundations, philanthropic foundations, American government has no hand in anything. American government does fund science projects like any countries government fund science projects in that country, higher than such projects you know there are organizations like National Health, National science foundation, and they give grants to universities, and universities give them to scientists who their projects, so in the end I guess the money comes from American government, American government gets money from me, because I'm a tax payer, unless you are in Greece or somewhere, most people pay taxes. And when you pay taxes, that's what the government gets. I understand in France you pay a lot of taxes, right, and in return you get a lot of things. So that's really what happens. Did I answer your question?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK. Just to be clear, I don't work for anyone, I'm independent contractor working for myself. I’ve no boss, which is a very good thing.<br />
<br />
'''Georges:''' Still a few minutes left, so if somebody has another question?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Anything else? Ask me anything.<br />
<br />
== 43'49 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' So we're working for a software which is developed by people in Europe ?? and so on, on mailing list we had some discussions that are a bit too flamatory if I can say, so we have a big discussion about code of conduct, we hit difference of culture in states in Europe, the thing is, would you say that code of conduct is a law or not?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, certainly not.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Because many people reacted to , thinking, of course it is not an official law imposed, it was the community organising itself and, but for many people reacted, in particular people from Europe reacted to this, or a group of people, as a group is trying to impose a law, and if it's a code of conduct it’s a law, and if it's a law there should be distinctions, punishments if people...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, I would say it's not a law, it is something agreed upon by a group, let's say you invite me to your house for diner, you invite all of us to your house for diner tonight, and when we come in there you say that we have to take our shoes off before entering. And I decide to not take my shoes off, you can throw me out of your house. Is that a law? No. it's just a code of conduct you've established, right? ?? like that, no there could be cultural differences, maybe in my culture it is against my honour to take off my shoes. How dare you say I should take off my shoes? Well then it becomes a problem, right? So that's always there, so no I don't think code of conduct is law, and ?? it’s a really good thing because if you can come to a conclusion, then you manage to create something without involving law. And that's the thing we're trying to get at, because lawyers are expensive and confusion etcetera. In the end of course if a legal rule is broken, the law would come in, right? I mean if I come into your house and take off my shoes and come in and everything than I steal you're cutlery something like that, then I've broken law, I committed a crime and you can report me. It may not be worth it, if I've just stolen a fork, but I've broken a law. But I personally don't think code of conduct is law, I do understand the difficulty a code of conduct cross-cultural situation because definitely the major differences between America and Europe in terms of cultural expectations.<br />
<br />
== 46'55 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:'' So what do you think about strict chairman.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Strict chairman? Very, very important. <br />
Out of time! Thank you!</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es&diff=81362Ethique et l'intégrité collecte données2018-11-06T16:28:41Z<p>JennyB : /* 20'49 transcrit par Cpm, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA */ ok, ajout texte slide (et trad slide en fr)</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
<br />
'''Titre :''' Ethique et intégrité de la collecte et du partage des données - science citoyenne et autres projets d'Open Science<br />
<br />
'''Titre VO IETF=[en-US] :''' Ethics and Integrity of Data Collection and Sharing - citizen science and other open science projects<br />
<br />
'''Intervenant :''' Puneet Kishor <br />
<br />
'''Lieu :''' RMLL2015 - Beauvais<br />
<br />
'''Date :''' Juillet 2015<br />
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'''Durée :''' 47'10"<br />
<br />
'''[http://videos-cdn.rmll.info/videos2015/ubicast/web/showroom/126-ethique-et-lintegrite-de-la-collecte_1f5a/v1253b456c154lcspb36_high.webm Lien]''' vers la '''la vidéo'''<br />
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==Transcription==<br />
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==00' J'essaye, MO, cqfd93, CBA==<br />
Rencontres Mondiales du Logiciel Libre. Beauvais 2015<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Eh bien, nous allons commencer la conférence suivante et Corinne tu es avec nous, tout va bien. Je donne la parole. Ah, votre microphone est ici. Your microphone is there. I shall not translate.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' What's that?<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur:''' I shall not translate, because...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' That's OK, OK.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Ça va pour l’anglais tout le monde ?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I apologize, I am going to talk in English. but it will give you a chance to practice your English with me. My French is much worse than your English, you don't want me to be doing that anyway. This is going to be a very different presentation, I think, from most of the presentations you've been hearing. Most of them has been about software. This is about matter issues, bigger issues, not bigger, I don't mean more noble but bigger in terms of more complicated issues about ethics and integrity and what we can or cannot, or should or should not do.<br />
<br />
So hopefully you will find this of interest and I will want your reactions to that. It's very good that the conservation, if I understand correctly, ended with a little bit of talk about terms of services and licenses ???, is that right? I can have got that, you now, my French is not good and my Spanish is not good and I don't know any Portuguese but I could get that much little bit.<br />
<br />
I actually used to work for an organization called Creative Commons. How many people have heard of Creative Commons?<br />
<br />
I am surprised that there are few people who have not heard of Creative Commons. Creative Commons is the organization that makes copyright licenses, one of which is actually [NdT:now] used by Wikipedia for everything that is published on Wikipedia. And CC licenses as they are called are Creative Commons copyright licenses, I worked at Creative Commons for three years as the manager of Science and Data policy.<br />
<br />
So my focus is more on science and the application of licensing information to scientific data and scientific software. <br />
<br />
In this presentation I'm going to go in a slightly different but related direction.<br />
<br />
How many people here understand what is a license?<br />
<br />
No, no, it's easier than meaning of life. Can you tell me in very short what is a license?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Very good! A license is a permission. You can do something with my work or whatever that I have licensed. A license is a permission given in advance without knowing what you may do or not do. Think of a notice on a park, it says "You can come and sit here and enjoy the park", that's a license to enjoy the park. The person who's put the notice doesn't know who's going to enjoy the park, but it has been put there in the future for anyone to enjoy the park, that's a license.<br />
License is based upon some kind of underlying law. There is something that gives me the right to give you the permission, right? This is Pablo's computer, he gave me the permission to use his computer. If it was not his computer, he couldn't have given me per- well, he could have given me permission but wouldn't have meant anything, right? Because he doesn't have the right to give it to me. So in order for me to license something, I have to have the rights on it, that I can license.<br />
In the world of intellectual property, there is a right called Copyright Law. How many of you understand what is Copyright Law? Even generally.<br />
<br />
==05' Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Can you tell me what is copyright law, short?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Someone else: Can you tell me what is copyright law?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Try it! No?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Copyright law is a law that gives me the first right in the benefits that I may get from things I create, OK? So if I write a poetry or if I write a song or make a film or make a Wikipedia page, I immediately get rights on it and I get the benefit or the first chance of benefiting from those. And then, based on that, I can give those rights to others and I do that using a license. If you go to any Wikipedia page or any page and if you go to the very bottom of it, terms of use, somewhere there will be written that "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply". The person who wrote this had rights, that person then gave away those rights using this license. This license was made by Creative Commons where I used to work. OK, so that's the connection. OK. Now, Let's come back to my talk.<br />
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<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 01 sur 47 mn 10 copyright law licence : end of intro--><br />
<br />
So you all are now experts in copyright law and you all are now experts in licenses. But there are things which are not covered by copyright law and if they are not covered by copyright law, I don’t have rights in it that I can license away, and if I can't do that then how does the world work? And that is the subject of my talk. As you can see I've gone beyond the Creative Commons basically.<br />
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<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 34 --><br />
=== Approving conventional science projects ===<br />
Conventional science projects, and I'm using the word "conventional" to mean the most common place science projects that happen in universities and higher research institutions, if they involve human subjects, they have to be approved. I don't know the situation in France, but I'm hundred percent sure it probably is the same as in the United States. There is some independent body that has to approve your project to ensure that you're going to treat your human subject with respect. In the United States, these bodies are called '''Institutional Review Boards''' (IRBs) <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 20 -->. When I want to make such a project <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 25 ??? il mange ses mots mais ca va --> and I want to study behavior or I want to study people and their behavior on anything, it could be a social sciences project, it could be a health project, it really doesn't matter. If humans are involved, I have to get the project approved, and the IRB which are independent bodies, they will review my project and they will ask me a lot of questions and they'll make it very difficult for me. In fact they will make sure that I'm doing everything correctly and that I am not going to do anything that will in any way harm or disrespect the humans that I'm studying. <!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 07 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going to be getting any data from humans, I will inform them, so if I am going to be studying you, I will inform you in advance as to what I'm getting from you and you will have the option to leave the study if you want. Understood? OK.<br />
So that's a very very basic step in all science project. IRBs are like the ethical watchguards. Typically, IRBs do their review in the beginning of a project, and they review the project and then they say "yes you can do it" or "no you can't do it" or "yes you can do it but you have to make these corrections etc, etc"<br />
OK? Yeah?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 54 --><br />
<br />
== 09'53 Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA(+son) et relu JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 55 sur 47 mn 10 relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going too fast, let me know, I mean I know when you people talk really fast in French I can't understand. I'm learning French, I understand if you speak slow, but I can understand the same thing with English.<br />
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=== Citizen Science === <!-- Temps vidéo : 10 mn 21, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
'''But what about … Citizen Science?''' Have you heard the term Citizen Science? Has anyone here heard the term Citizen Science? George you have… no? Nobody has heard the term Citizen Science besides George? George, can you tell me what is Citizen Science? You can tell in French.<br />
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'''Public :''' C'est de la science faite par des non spécialistes, par des passionnés. By passionate people, not specialists.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, so there's several kinds of Citizen Science, typically Citizen Science involves, it does involve a specialist, say me, but then I employ, not employ as in payment, but I recruit a lot of common citizens who are not specialists to help me do the project.<br />
<br />
Have you heard of a product called "Galaxy Zoo"? Galaxy Zoo is a very famous Citizen Science project. Zooniverse is the platform on which Galaxy Zoo is based.<br />
<br />
There's a very famous project called the Cornell Birds Survey. Every year, Cornell University in the United States does this bird survey where citizens from all over the United States for a specified period go out and count birds. And it's been going on for more than a decade. It's a very rich project, yes.<br />
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'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I wouldn't call it Citizen Science although it does involve getting permission from the person whose computer on which you're running SETI@home, I wouldn't call it Citizen Science, I would just call it more like "distributed computing", you know, that's really what I'm doing here, OK. <br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah, exactly, and the work can be of different kinds or quality. So I can ask you all to feel a survey, or I can ask you all to complete some task for me, or I can ask you all to report me every time that your leaving, or something like that, right. I can employ your muscles, I can employ your eyes, or I can employ your brain to help me in analyze something, etc.<br />
<br />
So, Citizen Science is becoming very popular. It's becoming very, very popular because with the advent of the Internet and particularly with the advent of something like this [NdT:mobile phone shown], which is really a very powerful computer: I mean this is more powerful than a laptop that I add about five years ago. There's a lot of things I can do: it is a GPS, it's a camera, it is all kinds of sensors, that's a light sensor. I mean this is unbelievable, right? I mean, you know... And it's in my pocket. So this is... And everyone has one. So it's allowing people to do settling signs, distributed signs. Let have a quote, that says: "... is changing the relationship between science and society by fostering more collaborative, interdisciplinary research."<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13 mn 35, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --><br />
<br />
== 13'36 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB +son ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn37, titre de la slide --> <br />
=== How do we evaluate, approve and monitor citizen science projects ===<br />
How do we approve, evaluate and monitor some citizen science projects, that's the theme of my presentation.<br />
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==== Three kinds of open projects ====<br />
<br />
There are three kinds of projects according to a paper that I found. <br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn47, sous-titre de la slide : contributory --> <br />
<br />
Projects where citizens '''contribute''' some information, projects where they actually not just contribute some information, but they also help '''collaborate''' and help design or even analyze some information. Galaxy Zoo has a sort of that doc, you actually see some information and you tell whether it's a star or a nebula or... You know, you actually do something, you think about something and you make a judgment call.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn23, sous-titre de la slide : Co-created --> <br />
And then the various sort of the top end of Citizen Science projects would be where scientists and citizens get together and try and figure out what to study.<br />
<br />
There is actually another fourth kind of citizen science project that's happening a lot: '''self-organized'''. <!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn39, sous-titre de la slide : self-organized --> How many here have heard the term quantified-self? Can you tell me what's quantified-self?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn52 --><br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible <!-- Temps vidéo : 15mn07 --><br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, kind of. For example my phone has a motion sensor. Every time I walk it counts the number of steps I walked. And it basically allows me to keep track of how many steps I've walked and if I go here and click on a button, it'll tell me that today I've walked five thousand steps. Five thousands one hundred and five, which actually is not a lot, I should be walking twice as much more. It also tells me that I've climbed two floors, so I haven't done much climbing today.<br />
<br />
But quantified-self is, I mean it could be anything, it could be how much you walk, it could be taking your blood pressure on a daily basis, it could be measuring your heartbeat on a daily basis, and there are people, there is a very weird place in this world, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's called San Francisco, where people are obsessed with this kind of stuff, and there are constantly measuring everything about themselves. They've got like you know, they just get stuck everywhere and they are just measuring everything, which is why I run away from there and I came to Paris, where nobody seems to be obsessed by it at all. But, that's quantified-self. <!-- Temps vidéo : 16mn19 --><br />
<br />
But people are taking this quantification further into analysis, and people are grouping their data together and trying to figure out what's wrong with them, trying to cure diseases, people who have certain kinds of diseases are building websites where they can collaborate and talk to each other and say "hey, you know, this is happening to me, is it happening to you also? I get headaches when I drink red wine, do you get headaches when you drink red wine also?". Things like that they are doing, right? These are sort of self-organized scientific projects that are happening.<br />
<br />
So then these projects are happening outside conventional academies, they are not happening at the universities, they are not happening at Université Marie Curie, they are not happening at Stanford University, they are just happening at, just people, meeting together and doing these things, right? Who monitors these projects?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15 --><br />
<br />
== 17'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15, relecture son JennyB, 6 nov 2018 --> <br />
'''How do we approve non-conventional projects?''' <br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn18, titre de la slide, avec 4 puces qu'on devrait faire resortir (mise en forme) :<br />
citizen science, sensors, self-measurement (quantified self), participants led research (PLR) lu à 18mn15 --> <br />
<br />
So, the thing that I want to ask about is, and actually I'm going to ask you a lot of question, I'm not gonna provide any answers.<br />
The thing that I'm really asking about is: how do we approve non-conventional projects?<br />
<br />
If you decide to do a study on yourself, maybe you are taking samples out of your body, and measuring them or something. Is that ethical? Is it ethical to harm yourself? I mean the society says no. It is illegal to commit suicide. In many societies at least, in many societies. So the issue really becomes how do we evaluate and monitor projects that lie outside things that are governed by law?<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn15 --> <br />
Citizen science, sensors, self-measurement, participant led research, that's one of the big things that are very popular. As I mentioned people have certain diseases and they make a website where people of same disease can come together and share their experiences. You know, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease, different kinds of cancers, a lot of people want, they want somewhat comfort in a community, right? And they are sometimes giving each other advice and they are doing it outside the mechanism of medicine and health laws and the institutions. <!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn57, titre de la slide : substitute for IRBs ? --> <br />
<br />
So what is the substitute for IRBs in this question, that's something that I'm thinking about.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 19mn04, titre de la slide : what about ongoing monitoring --><br />
=== What about ongoing monitoring ===<br />
<br />
== 19'04 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
: On the slide '''What about ongoing monitoring?''', six items<br />
:: - Collecting data on others<br />
:: - (Mis-)Reporting Data<br />
:: - Damaging Irreplaceable Evidence<br />
:: - Invading Privacy of Others<br />
:: - Balancing Orivacy and Honesty<br />
:: - Giving Credit<br />
<br />
And what about ongoing monitoring? Even if you approve such a project, even if there is, even if you set up a system where you can approve some kind of projects that's going on, how do you monitor it on an ongoing basis? Where people are doing things like they may be collecting data on others, what if I'm collecting data on you and misreport it? I tell something bad about you or I tell something good about myself that doesn't exist. You know, what if I recruit all of you to measure water samples from your village wells, and you find that it's not very good, and you decide not to report it, right? So these are the issues. Or you find that somebody else's well is not very good, and that person hasn't reported. Should you tell on that person, that person hasn't reported, you know, because then there's the issue of privacy that comes in.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 20mn04 --> <br />
<br />
So '''invading privacy of others''', if there's a citizen science project let's say, let's say I recruited all of you because I'm studying nesting habits of certain kinds of birds; And you all are bird lovers and I've recruited all of you, and you are supposed to go to the nests of the birds and take photographs and bring them back to me. Turns out that you're also a collector of eggs, and you steal the eggs, right? That's the issue so harming existing data or harming natural environment or culture property, these are the issues when there is no mechanism for ongoing monitoring that might exist in a more conventional academy.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 20mn49 --><br />
<br />
== 20'49 transcrit par Cpm, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
<br />
=== Legal tools are… ===<br />
So the reality is that legal tools that exist such as copyright law, etc, are inadequate,<br />
they either don't exist, and if they exist, they are inadequate, they are inappropriate, they are expensive, nobody likes lawyers, lawyers are expensive and they are confusing, and they really scare us.<br />
I mean you know, how many of you have ever been to a court? No one.<br />
And a lot of people will never go to a court in their normal lives.<br />
I mean a normal life, doesn't involve lawyers.<br />
And it doesn't involve courts and yet our life is ruled by laws.<br />
Right? So, it's an interesting thing that we have all these laws and yet laws don't really, you know, come in to play in our life on a daily basis.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 21mn41 --> <br />
<br />
<br />
: On the slide Legal tools are…, five items<br />
:: - Inadequate<br />
:: - Inappropriate<br />
:: - Expensive<br />
:: - Complicated<br />
:: - Fear-Driven<br />
<br />
: Sur l'écran "Le recours aux outils de la Loi sont…" cinq points :<br />
:: - Inadéquation<br />
:: - Inapproprié<br />
:: - Cher (coûteux)<br />
:: - Compliqué<br />
:: - Guidé par/génère de la peur<br />
<br />
== 21'41 transcrit par Cpm, relu son CBA ==<br />
Slide 14/10 '''Do no evil'''<br />
<br />
So, one solution could be do no evil. You eared that one, right?<br />
Do you know evil?<br />
That hasn't gone very well.<br />
There is a big company that has this, think all do no evil.<br />
And they have done even evil up there.<br />
So, maybe, the thing that I, I'm thinking quite a bit about, is about just mutual respect and social contract.<br />
So how many of you have eared the term social contract? "Contrat social", here we go, french, yeah, Rousseau, yeah.<br />
So this is notion that we give up something to get something. Right?<br />
We, individuals, when we become member of a society or a country, we give up some of our individual freedoms, in return for the safety and other things that the society provide.<br />
That's the social contract, right?<br />
I'll be a citizen of France and France will look after me, that kind of a thing. Somebody laugh.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes because maybe too much.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah. But anyway, that's the notion of social contract.<br />
This notion that there is something that bind all of the groups together.<br />
<br />
== 23'03 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Good behaviour by another name'''<br />
<br />
So, here are different names for good behavior. You know, a lot of conferences nowadays have this thing called "code of conduct". And of course social contract, doctors have this thing called Hippocratic oath, you know the little Rx, you know "I'll never harm anyone, bla bla bla etc", we have something called "honor code university", I don't know if you have that here? In the United States there's a honor code that you will not cheat, like we can get exams where you take the exam to your home, and you bring it back two or three days later but it's a honor code that you will not ask someone else, you know. Mutual respect…<br />
So what I'm saying is interestingly there are things they may not always work, but there are things out there which are not based in law. And they are designed to make communities work, OK? So can something like this be used or maybe a combination of these things be used?<br />
<br />
== 24'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Importance of data integrity'''<br />
<br />
One issue that becomes very important that I'm really interested in is the notion of data integrity. <br />
<br />
This thing [holding his phone] is telling me that I walked five thousand one hundred and five steps today. What if it's over-reporting? What if it's under-reporting? I don't know. Should I just believe it? We go to live believing a lot of things, not questioning them, right? Until we get some other evidence to the contrary.<br />
<br />
There is a lot of focus in this conference and in my life, I work at creative cons as I said, on open license, right? First of all I guarantee you ninety percent of the people don't know what an open license means when they say "open license". OK, fair enough. Like people don't know what organic means, but they shop organic food, right?<br />
<br />
Open is good, but is not a substitute for good science, 'cause in the end science is asking certain questions, and that is more important than anything. What would you rather? Open but crappy science, closed but good science? If you're a scientist you would probably choose good science, because a scientist is motivated by answering questions. By finding insights of something.<br />
<br />
So the question, and this is particularly useful not so much in software, but in hardware. Open hardware. What if the design is open but the data coming out of the hardware are bad? So let's say I make a hardware, I made some fantastic sensor, you know like the Star Wars tricorder it can measure everything, and I publish it under an open license, right? And you come in, you see that, you like it, you take it down, you're a great guy, we are not very honest. You take my open design and you make some changes to it, or you maybe cut some corners and make something which has license opened but now is not producing right data. And what if this thing was measuring something that was important for environmental health or public health, maybe reporting on air quality, maybe reporting on water quality? there could be serious consequences for public health.<br />
<br />
So the issue of data integrity is very important which has nothing to do with licensing, but it's very important for open science and the quality of science.<br />
<br />
== 26'55 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Evaluating data integrity'''<br />
<br />
So, there is a study that I found where they found many ways in which you can actually evaluate data integrity. <br />
<br />
By the way, all my ??? talk is on my website and, no software's required, just a browser, just click you know, it's a program I wrote and so it's available to anyone. So you can see all the links are there.<br />
<br />
So you can measure different... Think of these like vectors along which you can measure data integrity. Is the data accessible, believable, complete, consistent, relevant, secure, etc. There is many things you can measure, you can add more to this or subtract from this. They are dimensions that you can measure.<br />
<br />
Building can do as look a reputation, or think of it like social capital. This is very common on web communities, right? How many likes for example, or how many re-tweets, this is one example of some kind of trust and something. We have reputation scores in communities that are software, particularly software communities well you know, there is someone who's answered a lot of questions. Has people used Stackoverflow? Stackoverflow has the reputation, all has this reputation system basically, and as your reputation grows more you can do more things, etc.<br />
So that's sort like trust across social networks, and what I call co-calibration where you can take yourself and calibrate yourself against someone else, or take a piece of hardware and calibrate a against a non-truth, maybe a reference hardware. So, that's another way for evaluating data integrity.<br />
<br />
The bottom line is that there are mechanisms out there for making our lives run in a community fashion, without involving law. What are some of those mechanisms that can be taken together or combined into something that can be used to evaluate and monitor open science projects. And this is the thing that I actually find the most interesting right now and sort of my post-license world of work.<br />
<br />
== 29'37 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
That's all the talk I have. I think I have a lot of time left, right?<br />
So, I really want people to speak up and give their thoughts and, you know, that's not be a one-way thing. feel free to speak in English, I won't feel offended at all, or speak in esperanto, I don't care, Georges will translate it.<br />
<br />
Please I really want to hear your thoughts, don't be shy, I mean there is nothing wrong, I don't know enough about this remember, I want the questions, I want answers. And I don't think we will all gonna get answers here. So if you have something, tell me.... Come on, you're french, you have an opinion on everything!<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' I'm sorry for my English which is very poor, I just have a question about, when you said that people which are ill can share about their illness and they try to share their illness, have you got some example of sharing medicines, how can it be possible with the pharmaceutical industry?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' You mean actually sharing actual medicines? Actual tablets?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Or advices, everything, you know...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' There are a lot of communities on the internet, very very simple searches will find, there is one called "Crohnology" (https://crohnology.com/) which is for a disease called Crohn's disease, there is a website called "PatientsLikeMe" (https://www.patientslikeme.com/), which actually allows you to find other people who may have same common illness, see what happens is, if I have an illness that's very difficult to treat, then I'm looking for answers. And maybe my doctor can't give me all the answers, so I look for other people with similar illness, right? And internet allows me now to meet people of similar interests, or similar goals right? So we can share information, so there are good things in here, it gives me solice, I mean it gives me like comfort knowing that somebody else has similar things and can maybe give me some words of wisdom or some advice.<br />
<br />
There is a danger also, and the danger is that we could be giving each other wrong advice, right? And this is where the medical profession is kind of ??, should people be out there be dispensing advice to each other, or giving each other, god forbid, give some medicines actually, without advice you know, "you have to drink hot water with something, because it works I swear it works!", right? And people do that, and you find that the correct thing is not being treated, so there is danger also in it.<br />
<br />
Some of these groups have actually become very active, and have become very effective, they're very good, I think. I don't know the answer, I am torn between this notion of people know what is best for them, and then every day I see stupid things, people doing stupid things and I wonder they don't know what is best for them, you know. I don't know the answer to that, I thing there has to be some balance.<br />
<br />
You heard of 23andMe (https://www.23andme.com)? It is a company in San Francisco and you give them 99 dollars and they will mail you a little kit and you rub some saliva on it, you mail it back to them and they will decode your DNA, and make it accessible to you over the Web. 99 bucks, what a deal! Sometimes they have a two-for-one, you and your friend, only for one price. The problem was, that they were initially claiming that "we will show you your DNA, and you can then find out problems about potentially diseases", so maybe you look at that on the you realize "Oh my god, I have something which makes me in 9O% likely to get breast cancer"<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' They assume, that you can read your DNA. I can that with my DNA, I will understand something.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, they claimed they'll make it easy to understand. But the problem was that that was like giving diagnostic advice, and it hasn't been like that, because there are rules about, because then it becomes a medical device that you're selling, and you're diagnosing something. So there is one thing to do something which is educational or entertainment or whatever, another thing saying it's medicine, because it's governed by certain laws. Well there is things people fell on both sides, some people say they want to know, do you have a right to know everything about yourself? I mean that's a big question, right?<br />
<br />
== 35'35 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Thank you for the talk. For me, there is something to do with Wikipedia structure, we need at least three levels of comprehension for everybody, for engineering specialists and for scientists which have a tool to understand very high level of the insides, not everybody has the education to understand, you have this responsibility to make all answers as we can the complexity understandable for everybody, and this is an obligation I think for openness to make as well as we can the complexity...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' On Wikipedia?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Wikipedia is a good example...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I've no argument to that, I think it's a very good goal to have, I don't know who's gonna have to do that, it's expensive to explain things, it takes a lot of time to... Simple things are hard, to make something simple is very, very hard, and a lot of people are getting paid a lot of money to make things simple, so I don't know who's gonna do it but I agree with you, I've no problem with that.<br />
<br />
== 37'45 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Come on... Nothing? I'm sorry I have more questions than answers, but this is a topic that...<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Do you know if the current review boards in the United States and France are actually considering this question and thinking about how to involve this kind of citizen science?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no. Well I don't know anything about France at all, but definitely in the US no. Citizen science is popular, but it's not still mainstream that has entered the realm of review boards. If a project is constructed in a way that is a conventional project, maybe I’m a scientist in the university, and I’m going to involve a lot of citizens in there, then I'll probably have to go to an institution review board, and it will judge my project, but not because it's citizen science necessarily, but more because it happens to be a scientific project that involves human beings. There are certainly not thinking about, as far as I know, about ongoing monitoring of projects and how the behaviour of citizens amongst themselves and on other citizens, how would that be impacted. As far as I know, no, and this is very new. And this notion, there is an increased conversation about this notion of social contract, that we have some responsibility, toward each other, and also the researcher has a responsibility toward the person being studied, and vice-versa, like for example if I go to a hospital, and I'm going to be treated for say, high blood pressure, hypertension or something, do I have an obligation to make my information available for the benefit of others? Because I am benefiting from the knowledge of others. So that conversation about social contracts has started but it's very, very much in the beginning. Nobody as far as I know knows anything about what such a contract would look like.<br />
<br />
== 40'30 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' J'essaie en anglais ou quelqu'un peut traduire ? En fait, c'est une question, peut-être, qui fâche. De quoi vous vivez ? Qui vous paie ? et est-ce que c'est le gouvernement américain is helping association like Creative Commons, and who pays you to do this? Because from my eyes you're the incarnation of general interest and as a French citizen I’m asking myself which organization, and I hope you will answer me American government is paying you?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' No, sure? <br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' American government is not paying me.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Or federal government? Californian, you're from San Francisco...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK, I used to work at Creative Commons, I don't work at Creative Commons now, so not only is Creative Commons not paying me, not only is American government not paying, actually no one is paying me because I'm jobless, I'm actually looking for a job. I'm jobless and homeless.<br />
<br />
So the second question I think you eluded that American government was paying Creative Commons, no American government is not paying Creative Commons. Creative Commons is a non profit organization founded by foundations, philanthropic foundations, American government has no hand in anything. American government does fund science projects like any countries government fund science projects in that country, higher than such projects you know there are organizations like National Health, National science foundation, and they give grants to universities, and universities give them to scientists who their projects, so in the end I guess the money comes from American government, American government gets money from me, because I'm a tax payer, unless you are in Greece or somewhere, most people pay taxes. And when you pay taxes, that's what the government gets. I understand in France you pay a lot of taxes, right, and in return you get a lot of things. So that's really what happens. Did I answer your question?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK. Just to be clear, I don't work for anyone, I'm independent contractor working for myself. I’ve no boss, which is a very good thing.<br />
<br />
'''Georges:''' Still a few minutes left, so if somebody has another question?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Anything else? Ask me anything.<br />
<br />
== 43'49 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' So we're working for a software which is developed by people in Europe ?? and so on, on mailing list we had some discussions that are a bit too flamatory if I can say, so we have a big discussion about code of conduct, we hit difference of culture in states in Europe, the thing is, would you say that code of conduct is a law or not?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, certainly not.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Because many people reacted to , thinking, of course it is not an official law imposed, it was the community organising itself and, but for many people reacted, in particular people from Europe reacted to this, or a group of people, as a group is trying to impose a law, and if it's a code of conduct it’s a law, and if it's a law there should be distinctions, punishments if people...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, I would say it's not a law, it is something agreed upon by a group, let's say you invite me to your house for diner, you invite all of us to your house for diner tonight, and when we come in there you say that we have to take our shoes off before entering. And I decide to not take my shoes off, you can throw me out of your house. Is that a law? No. it's just a code of conduct you've established, right? ?? like that, no there could be cultural differences, maybe in my culture it is against my honour to take off my shoes. How dare you say I should take off my shoes? Well then it becomes a problem, right? So that's always there, so no I don't think code of conduct is law, and ?? it’s a really good thing because if you can come to a conclusion, then you manage to create something without involving law. And that's the thing we're trying to get at, because lawyers are expensive and confusion etcetera. In the end of course if a legal rule is broken, the law would come in, right? I mean if I come into your house and take off my shoes and come in and everything than I steal you're cutlery something like that, then I've broken law, I committed a crime and you can report me. It may not be worth it, if I've just stolen a fork, but I've broken a law. But I personally don't think code of conduct is law, I do understand the difficulty a code of conduct cross-cultural situation because definitely the major differences between America and Europe in terms of cultural expectations.<br />
<br />
== 46'55 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:'' So what do you think about strict chairman.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Strict chairman? Very, very important. <br />
Out of time! Thank you!</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es&diff=81361Ethique et l'intégrité collecte données2018-11-06T16:16:46Z<p>JennyB : /* 19'04 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et Jenny */ ajout texte de la slide. Relecture ok - JennyB 6 nov 2018</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
<br />
'''Titre :''' Ethique et intégrité de la collecte et du partage des données - science citoyenne et autres projets d'Open Science<br />
<br />
'''Titre VO IETF=[en-US] :''' Ethics and Integrity of Data Collection and Sharing - citizen science and other open science projects<br />
<br />
'''Intervenant :''' Puneet Kishor <br />
<br />
'''Lieu :''' RMLL2015 - Beauvais<br />
<br />
'''Date :''' Juillet 2015<br />
<br />
'''Durée :''' 47'10"<br />
<br />
'''[http://videos-cdn.rmll.info/videos2015/ubicast/web/showroom/126-ethique-et-lintegrite-de-la-collecte_1f5a/v1253b456c154lcspb36_high.webm Lien]''' vers la '''la vidéo'''<br />
<br />
==Transcription==<br />
<br />
<br />
==00' J'essaye, MO, cqfd93, CBA==<br />
Rencontres Mondiales du Logiciel Libre. Beauvais 2015<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Eh bien, nous allons commencer la conférence suivante et Corinne tu es avec nous, tout va bien. Je donne la parole. Ah, votre microphone est ici. Your microphone is there. I shall not translate.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' What's that?<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur:''' I shall not translate, because...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' That's OK, OK.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Ça va pour l’anglais tout le monde ?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I apologize, I am going to talk in English. but it will give you a chance to practice your English with me. My French is much worse than your English, you don't want me to be doing that anyway. This is going to be a very different presentation, I think, from most of the presentations you've been hearing. Most of them has been about software. This is about matter issues, bigger issues, not bigger, I don't mean more noble but bigger in terms of more complicated issues about ethics and integrity and what we can or cannot, or should or should not do.<br />
<br />
So hopefully you will find this of interest and I will want your reactions to that. It's very good that the conservation, if I understand correctly, ended with a little bit of talk about terms of services and licenses ???, is that right? I can have got that, you now, my French is not good and my Spanish is not good and I don't know any Portuguese but I could get that much little bit.<br />
<br />
I actually used to work for an organization called Creative Commons. How many people have heard of Creative Commons?<br />
<br />
I am surprised that there are few people who have not heard of Creative Commons. Creative Commons is the organization that makes copyright licenses, one of which is actually [NdT:now] used by Wikipedia for everything that is published on Wikipedia. And CC licenses as they are called are Creative Commons copyright licenses, I worked at Creative Commons for three years as the manager of Science and Data policy.<br />
<br />
So my focus is more on science and the application of licensing information to scientific data and scientific software. <br />
<br />
In this presentation I'm going to go in a slightly different but related direction.<br />
<br />
How many people here understand what is a license?<br />
<br />
No, no, it's easier than meaning of life. Can you tell me in very short what is a license?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Very good! A license is a permission. You can do something with my work or whatever that I have licensed. A license is a permission given in advance without knowing what you may do or not do. Think of a notice on a park, it says "You can come and sit here and enjoy the park", that's a license to enjoy the park. The person who's put the notice doesn't know who's going to enjoy the park, but it has been put there in the future for anyone to enjoy the park, that's a license.<br />
License is based upon some kind of underlying law. There is something that gives me the right to give you the permission, right? This is Pablo's computer, he gave me the permission to use his computer. If it was not his computer, he couldn't have given me per- well, he could have given me permission but wouldn't have meant anything, right? Because he doesn't have the right to give it to me. So in order for me to license something, I have to have the rights on it, that I can license.<br />
In the world of intellectual property, there is a right called Copyright Law. How many of you understand what is Copyright Law? Even generally.<br />
<br />
==05' Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Can you tell me what is copyright law, short?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Someone else: Can you tell me what is copyright law?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Try it! No?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Copyright law is a law that gives me the first right in the benefits that I may get from things I create, OK? So if I write a poetry or if I write a song or make a film or make a Wikipedia page, I immediately get rights on it and I get the benefit or the first chance of benefiting from those. And then, based on that, I can give those rights to others and I do that using a license. If you go to any Wikipedia page or any page and if you go to the very bottom of it, terms of use, somewhere there will be written that "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply". The person who wrote this had rights, that person then gave away those rights using this license. This license was made by Creative Commons where I used to work. OK, so that's the connection. OK. Now, Let's come back to my talk.<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 01 sur 47 mn 10 copyright law licence : end of intro--><br />
<br />
So you all are now experts in copyright law and you all are now experts in licenses. But there are things which are not covered by copyright law and if they are not covered by copyright law, I don’t have rights in it that I can license away, and if I can't do that then how does the world work? And that is the subject of my talk. As you can see I've gone beyond the Creative Commons basically.<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 34 --><br />
=== Approving conventional science projects ===<br />
Conventional science projects, and I'm using the word "conventional" to mean the most common place science projects that happen in universities and higher research institutions, if they involve human subjects, they have to be approved. I don't know the situation in France, but I'm hundred percent sure it probably is the same as in the United States. There is some independent body that has to approve your project to ensure that you're going to treat your human subject with respect. In the United States, these bodies are called '''Institutional Review Boards''' (IRBs) <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 20 -->. When I want to make such a project <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 25 ??? il mange ses mots mais ca va --> and I want to study behavior or I want to study people and their behavior on anything, it could be a social sciences project, it could be a health project, it really doesn't matter. If humans are involved, I have to get the project approved, and the IRB which are independent bodies, they will review my project and they will ask me a lot of questions and they'll make it very difficult for me. In fact they will make sure that I'm doing everything correctly and that I am not going to do anything that will in any way harm or disrespect the humans that I'm studying. <!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 07 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going to be getting any data from humans, I will inform them, so if I am going to be studying you, I will inform you in advance as to what I'm getting from you and you will have the option to leave the study if you want. Understood? OK.<br />
So that's a very very basic step in all science project. IRBs are like the ethical watchguards. Typically, IRBs do their review in the beginning of a project, and they review the project and then they say "yes you can do it" or "no you can't do it" or "yes you can do it but you have to make these corrections etc, etc"<br />
OK? Yeah?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 54 --><br />
<br />
== 09'53 Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA(+son) et relu JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 55 sur 47 mn 10 relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going too fast, let me know, I mean I know when you people talk really fast in French I can't understand. I'm learning French, I understand if you speak slow, but I can understand the same thing with English.<br />
<br />
=== Citizen Science === <!-- Temps vidéo : 10 mn 21, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
'''But what about … Citizen Science?''' Have you heard the term Citizen Science? Has anyone here heard the term Citizen Science? George you have… no? Nobody has heard the term Citizen Science besides George? George, can you tell me what is Citizen Science? You can tell in French.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' C'est de la science faite par des non spécialistes, par des passionnés. By passionate people, not specialists.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, so there's several kinds of Citizen Science, typically Citizen Science involves, it does involve a specialist, say me, but then I employ, not employ as in payment, but I recruit a lot of common citizens who are not specialists to help me do the project.<br />
<br />
Have you heard of a product called "Galaxy Zoo"? Galaxy Zoo is a very famous Citizen Science project. Zooniverse is the platform on which Galaxy Zoo is based.<br />
<br />
There's a very famous project called the Cornell Birds Survey. Every year, Cornell University in the United States does this bird survey where citizens from all over the United States for a specified period go out and count birds. And it's been going on for more than a decade. It's a very rich project, yes.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I wouldn't call it Citizen Science although it does involve getting permission from the person whose computer on which you're running SETI@home, I wouldn't call it Citizen Science, I would just call it more like "distributed computing", you know, that's really what I'm doing here, OK. <br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah, exactly, and the work can be of different kinds or quality. So I can ask you all to feel a survey, or I can ask you all to complete some task for me, or I can ask you all to report me every time that your leaving, or something like that, right. I can employ your muscles, I can employ your eyes, or I can employ your brain to help me in analyze something, etc.<br />
<br />
So, Citizen Science is becoming very popular. It's becoming very, very popular because with the advent of the Internet and particularly with the advent of something like this [NdT:mobile phone shown], which is really a very powerful computer: I mean this is more powerful than a laptop that I add about five years ago. There's a lot of things I can do: it is a GPS, it's a camera, it is all kinds of sensors, that's a light sensor. I mean this is unbelievable, right? I mean, you know... And it's in my pocket. So this is... And everyone has one. So it's allowing people to do settling signs, distributed signs. Let have a quote, that says: "... is changing the relationship between science and society by fostering more collaborative, interdisciplinary research."<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13 mn 35, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --><br />
<br />
== 13'36 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB +son ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn37, titre de la slide --> <br />
=== How do we evaluate, approve and monitor citizen science projects ===<br />
How do we approve, evaluate and monitor some citizen science projects, that's the theme of my presentation.<br />
<br />
==== Three kinds of open projects ====<br />
<br />
There are three kinds of projects according to a paper that I found. <br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn47, sous-titre de la slide : contributory --> <br />
<br />
Projects where citizens '''contribute''' some information, projects where they actually not just contribute some information, but they also help '''collaborate''' and help design or even analyze some information. Galaxy Zoo has a sort of that doc, you actually see some information and you tell whether it's a star or a nebula or... You know, you actually do something, you think about something and you make a judgment call.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn23, sous-titre de la slide : Co-created --> <br />
And then the various sort of the top end of Citizen Science projects would be where scientists and citizens get together and try and figure out what to study.<br />
<br />
There is actually another fourth kind of citizen science project that's happening a lot: '''self-organized'''. <!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn39, sous-titre de la slide : self-organized --> How many here have heard the term quantified-self? Can you tell me what's quantified-self?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn52 --><br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible <!-- Temps vidéo : 15mn07 --><br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, kind of. For example my phone has a motion sensor. Every time I walk it counts the number of steps I walked. And it basically allows me to keep track of how many steps I've walked and if I go here and click on a button, it'll tell me that today I've walked five thousand steps. Five thousands one hundred and five, which actually is not a lot, I should be walking twice as much more. It also tells me that I've climbed two floors, so I haven't done much climbing today.<br />
<br />
But quantified-self is, I mean it could be anything, it could be how much you walk, it could be taking your blood pressure on a daily basis, it could be measuring your heartbeat on a daily basis, and there are people, there is a very weird place in this world, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's called San Francisco, where people are obsessed with this kind of stuff, and there are constantly measuring everything about themselves. They've got like you know, they just get stuck everywhere and they are just measuring everything, which is why I run away from there and I came to Paris, where nobody seems to be obsessed by it at all. But, that's quantified-self. <!-- Temps vidéo : 16mn19 --><br />
<br />
But people are taking this quantification further into analysis, and people are grouping their data together and trying to figure out what's wrong with them, trying to cure diseases, people who have certain kinds of diseases are building websites where they can collaborate and talk to each other and say "hey, you know, this is happening to me, is it happening to you also? I get headaches when I drink red wine, do you get headaches when you drink red wine also?". Things like that they are doing, right? These are sort of self-organized scientific projects that are happening.<br />
<br />
So then these projects are happening outside conventional academies, they are not happening at the universities, they are not happening at Université Marie Curie, they are not happening at Stanford University, they are just happening at, just people, meeting together and doing these things, right? Who monitors these projects?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15 --><br />
<br />
== 17'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15, relecture son JennyB, 6 nov 2018 --> <br />
'''How do we approve non-conventional projects?''' <br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn18, titre de la slide, avec 4 puces qu'on devrait faire resortir (mise en forme) :<br />
citizen science, sensors, self-measurement (quantified self), participants led research (PLR) lu à 18mn15 --> <br />
<br />
So, the thing that I want to ask about is, and actually I'm going to ask you a lot of question, I'm not gonna provide any answers.<br />
The thing that I'm really asking about is: how do we approve non-conventional projects?<br />
<br />
If you decide to do a study on yourself, maybe you are taking samples out of your body, and measuring them or something. Is that ethical? Is it ethical to harm yourself? I mean the society says no. It is illegal to commit suicide. In many societies at least, in many societies. So the issue really becomes how do we evaluate and monitor projects that lie outside things that are governed by law?<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn15 --> <br />
Citizen science, sensors, self-measurement, participant led research, that's one of the big things that are very popular. As I mentioned people have certain diseases and they make a website where people of same disease can come together and share their experiences. You know, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease, different kinds of cancers, a lot of people want, they want somewhat comfort in a community, right? And they are sometimes giving each other advice and they are doing it outside the mechanism of medicine and health laws and the institutions. <!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn57, titre de la slide : substitute for IRBs ? --> <br />
<br />
So what is the substitute for IRBs in this question, that's something that I'm thinking about.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 19mn04, titre de la slide : what about ongoing monitoring --><br />
=== What about ongoing monitoring ===<br />
<br />
== 19'04 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
: On the slide '''What about ongoing monitoring?''', six items<br />
:: - Collecting data on others<br />
:: - (Mis-)Reporting Data<br />
:: - Damaging Irreplaceable Evidence<br />
:: - Invading Privacy of Others<br />
:: - Balancing Orivacy and Honesty<br />
:: - Giving Credit<br />
<br />
And what about ongoing monitoring? Even if you approve such a project, even if there is, even if you set up a system where you can approve some kind of projects that's going on, how do you monitor it on an ongoing basis? Where people are doing things like they may be collecting data on others, what if I'm collecting data on you and misreport it? I tell something bad about you or I tell something good about myself that doesn't exist. You know, what if I recruit all of you to measure water samples from your village wells, and you find that it's not very good, and you decide not to report it, right? So these are the issues. Or you find that somebody else's well is not very good, and that person hasn't reported. Should you tell on that person, that person hasn't reported, you know, because then there's the issue of privacy that comes in.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 20mn04 --> <br />
<br />
So '''invading privacy of others''', if there's a citizen science project let's say, let's say I recruited all of you because I'm studying nesting habits of certain kinds of birds; And you all are bird lovers and I've recruited all of you, and you are supposed to go to the nests of the birds and take photographs and bring them back to me. Turns out that you're also a collector of eggs, and you steal the eggs, right? That's the issue so harming existing data or harming natural environment or culture property, these are the issues when there is no mechanism for ongoing monitoring that might exist in a more conventional academy.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 20mn49 --><br />
<br />
== 20'49 transcrit par Cpm, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
'''Legales tools are…'''<br />
So the reality is that legal tools that exist such as copyright law, etc, are inadequate,<br />
they either don't exist, and if they exist, they are inadequate, they are inappropriate, they are expensive, nobody likes lawyers, lawyers are expensive and they are confusing, and they really scare us.<br />
I mean you know, how many of you have ever been to a court? No one.<br />
And a lot of people will never go to a court in their normal lives.<br />
I mean a normal life, doesn't involve lawyers.<br />
And it doesn't involve courts and yet our life is ruled by laws.<br />
Right? So, it's an interesting thing that we have all these laws and yet laws don't really, you know, come in to play in our life on a daily basis.<br />
<br />
== 21'41 transcrit par Cpm, relu son CBA ==<br />
Slide 14/10 '''Do no evil'''<br />
<br />
So, one solution could be do no evil. You eared that one, right?<br />
Do you know evil?<br />
That hasn't gone very well.<br />
There is a big company that has this, think all do no evil.<br />
And they have done even evil up there.<br />
So, maybe, the thing that I, I'm thinking quite a bit about, is about just mutual respect and social contract.<br />
So how many of you have eared the term social contract? "Contrat social", here we go, french, yeah, Rousseau, yeah.<br />
So this is notion that we give up something to get something. Right?<br />
We, individuals, when we become member of a society or a country, we give up some of our individual freedoms, in return for the safety and other things that the society provide.<br />
That's the social contract, right?<br />
I'll be a citizen of France and France will look after me, that kind of a thing. Somebody laugh.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes because maybe too much.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah. But anyway, that's the notion of social contract.<br />
This notion that there is something that bind all of the groups together.<br />
<br />
== 23'03 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Good behaviour by another name'''<br />
<br />
So, here are different names for good behavior. You know, a lot of conferences nowadays have this thing called "code of conduct". And of course social contract, doctors have this thing called Hippocratic oath, you know the little Rx, you know "I'll never harm anyone, bla bla bla etc", we have something called "honor code university", I don't know if you have that here? In the United States there's a honor code that you will not cheat, like we can get exams where you take the exam to your home, and you bring it back two or three days later but it's a honor code that you will not ask someone else, you know. Mutual respect…<br />
So what I'm saying is interestingly there are things they may not always work, but there are things out there which are not based in law. And they are designed to make communities work, OK? So can something like this be used or maybe a combination of these things be used?<br />
<br />
== 24'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Importance of data integrity'''<br />
<br />
One issue that becomes very important that I'm really interested in is the notion of data integrity. <br />
<br />
This thing [holding his phone] is telling me that I walked five thousand one hundred and five steps today. What if it's over-reporting? What if it's under-reporting? I don't know. Should I just believe it? We go to live believing a lot of things, not questioning them, right? Until we get some other evidence to the contrary.<br />
<br />
There is a lot of focus in this conference and in my life, I work at creative cons as I said, on open license, right? First of all I guarantee you ninety percent of the people don't know what an open license means when they say "open license". OK, fair enough. Like people don't know what organic means, but they shop organic food, right?<br />
<br />
Open is good, but is not a substitute for good science, 'cause in the end science is asking certain questions, and that is more important than anything. What would you rather? Open but crappy science, closed but good science? If you're a scientist you would probably choose good science, because a scientist is motivated by answering questions. By finding insights of something.<br />
<br />
So the question, and this is particularly useful not so much in software, but in hardware. Open hardware. What if the design is open but the data coming out of the hardware are bad? So let's say I make a hardware, I made some fantastic sensor, you know like the Star Wars tricorder it can measure everything, and I publish it under an open license, right? And you come in, you see that, you like it, you take it down, you're a great guy, we are not very honest. You take my open design and you make some changes to it, or you maybe cut some corners and make something which has license opened but now is not producing right data. And what if this thing was measuring something that was important for environmental health or public health, maybe reporting on air quality, maybe reporting on water quality? there could be serious consequences for public health.<br />
<br />
So the issue of data integrity is very important which has nothing to do with licensing, but it's very important for open science and the quality of science.<br />
<br />
== 26'55 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Evaluating data integrity'''<br />
<br />
So, there is a study that I found where they found many ways in which you can actually evaluate data integrity. <br />
<br />
By the way, all my ??? talk is on my website and, no software's required, just a browser, just click you know, it's a program I wrote and so it's available to anyone. So you can see all the links are there.<br />
<br />
So you can measure different... Think of these like vectors along which you can measure data integrity. Is the data accessible, believable, complete, consistent, relevant, secure, etc. There is many things you can measure, you can add more to this or subtract from this. They are dimensions that you can measure.<br />
<br />
Building can do as look a reputation, or think of it like social capital. This is very common on web communities, right? How many likes for example, or how many re-tweets, this is one example of some kind of trust and something. We have reputation scores in communities that are software, particularly software communities well you know, there is someone who's answered a lot of questions. Has people used Stackoverflow? Stackoverflow has the reputation, all has this reputation system basically, and as your reputation grows more you can do more things, etc.<br />
So that's sort like trust across social networks, and what I call co-calibration where you can take yourself and calibrate yourself against someone else, or take a piece of hardware and calibrate a against a non-truth, maybe a reference hardware. So, that's another way for evaluating data integrity.<br />
<br />
The bottom line is that there are mechanisms out there for making our lives run in a community fashion, without involving law. What are some of those mechanisms that can be taken together or combined into something that can be used to evaluate and monitor open science projects. And this is the thing that I actually find the most interesting right now and sort of my post-license world of work.<br />
<br />
== 29'37 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
That's all the talk I have. I think I have a lot of time left, right?<br />
So, I really want people to speak up and give their thoughts and, you know, that's not be a one-way thing. feel free to speak in English, I won't feel offended at all, or speak in esperanto, I don't care, Georges will translate it.<br />
<br />
Please I really want to hear your thoughts, don't be shy, I mean there is nothing wrong, I don't know enough about this remember, I want the questions, I want answers. And I don't think we will all gonna get answers here. So if you have something, tell me.... Come on, you're french, you have an opinion on everything!<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' I'm sorry for my English which is very poor, I just have a question about, when you said that people which are ill can share about their illness and they try to share their illness, have you got some example of sharing medicines, how can it be possible with the pharmaceutical industry?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' You mean actually sharing actual medicines? Actual tablets?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Or advices, everything, you know...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' There are a lot of communities on the internet, very very simple searches will find, there is one called "Crohnology" (https://crohnology.com/) which is for a disease called Crohn's disease, there is a website called "PatientsLikeMe" (https://www.patientslikeme.com/), which actually allows you to find other people who may have same common illness, see what happens is, if I have an illness that's very difficult to treat, then I'm looking for answers. And maybe my doctor can't give me all the answers, so I look for other people with similar illness, right? And internet allows me now to meet people of similar interests, or similar goals right? So we can share information, so there are good things in here, it gives me solice, I mean it gives me like comfort knowing that somebody else has similar things and can maybe give me some words of wisdom or some advice.<br />
<br />
There is a danger also, and the danger is that we could be giving each other wrong advice, right? And this is where the medical profession is kind of ??, should people be out there be dispensing advice to each other, or giving each other, god forbid, give some medicines actually, without advice you know, "you have to drink hot water with something, because it works I swear it works!", right? And people do that, and you find that the correct thing is not being treated, so there is danger also in it.<br />
<br />
Some of these groups have actually become very active, and have become very effective, they're very good, I think. I don't know the answer, I am torn between this notion of people know what is best for them, and then every day I see stupid things, people doing stupid things and I wonder they don't know what is best for them, you know. I don't know the answer to that, I thing there has to be some balance.<br />
<br />
You heard of 23andMe (https://www.23andme.com)? It is a company in San Francisco and you give them 99 dollars and they will mail you a little kit and you rub some saliva on it, you mail it back to them and they will decode your DNA, and make it accessible to you over the Web. 99 bucks, what a deal! Sometimes they have a two-for-one, you and your friend, only for one price. The problem was, that they were initially claiming that "we will show you your DNA, and you can then find out problems about potentially diseases", so maybe you look at that on the you realize "Oh my god, I have something which makes me in 9O% likely to get breast cancer"<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' They assume, that you can read your DNA. I can that with my DNA, I will understand something.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, they claimed they'll make it easy to understand. But the problem was that that was like giving diagnostic advice, and it hasn't been like that, because there are rules about, because then it becomes a medical device that you're selling, and you're diagnosing something. So there is one thing to do something which is educational or entertainment or whatever, another thing saying it's medicine, because it's governed by certain laws. Well there is things people fell on both sides, some people say they want to know, do you have a right to know everything about yourself? I mean that's a big question, right?<br />
<br />
== 35'35 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Thank you for the talk. For me, there is something to do with Wikipedia structure, we need at least three levels of comprehension for everybody, for engineering specialists and for scientists which have a tool to understand very high level of the insides, not everybody has the education to understand, you have this responsibility to make all answers as we can the complexity understandable for everybody, and this is an obligation I think for openness to make as well as we can the complexity...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' On Wikipedia?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Wikipedia is a good example...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I've no argument to that, I think it's a very good goal to have, I don't know who's gonna have to do that, it's expensive to explain things, it takes a lot of time to... Simple things are hard, to make something simple is very, very hard, and a lot of people are getting paid a lot of money to make things simple, so I don't know who's gonna do it but I agree with you, I've no problem with that.<br />
<br />
== 37'45 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Come on... Nothing? I'm sorry I have more questions than answers, but this is a topic that...<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Do you know if the current review boards in the United States and France are actually considering this question and thinking about how to involve this kind of citizen science?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no. Well I don't know anything about France at all, but definitely in the US no. Citizen science is popular, but it's not still mainstream that has entered the realm of review boards. If a project is constructed in a way that is a conventional project, maybe I’m a scientist in the university, and I’m going to involve a lot of citizens in there, then I'll probably have to go to an institution review board, and it will judge my project, but not because it's citizen science necessarily, but more because it happens to be a scientific project that involves human beings. There are certainly not thinking about, as far as I know, about ongoing monitoring of projects and how the behaviour of citizens amongst themselves and on other citizens, how would that be impacted. As far as I know, no, and this is very new. And this notion, there is an increased conversation about this notion of social contract, that we have some responsibility, toward each other, and also the researcher has a responsibility toward the person being studied, and vice-versa, like for example if I go to a hospital, and I'm going to be treated for say, high blood pressure, hypertension or something, do I have an obligation to make my information available for the benefit of others? Because I am benefiting from the knowledge of others. So that conversation about social contracts has started but it's very, very much in the beginning. Nobody as far as I know knows anything about what such a contract would look like.<br />
<br />
== 40'30 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' J'essaie en anglais ou quelqu'un peut traduire ? En fait, c'est une question, peut-être, qui fâche. De quoi vous vivez ? Qui vous paie ? et est-ce que c'est le gouvernement américain is helping association like Creative Commons, and who pays you to do this? Because from my eyes you're the incarnation of general interest and as a French citizen I’m asking myself which organization, and I hope you will answer me American government is paying you?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' No, sure? <br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' American government is not paying me.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Or federal government? Californian, you're from San Francisco...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK, I used to work at Creative Commons, I don't work at Creative Commons now, so not only is Creative Commons not paying me, not only is American government not paying, actually no one is paying me because I'm jobless, I'm actually looking for a job. I'm jobless and homeless.<br />
<br />
So the second question I think you eluded that American government was paying Creative Commons, no American government is not paying Creative Commons. Creative Commons is a non profit organization founded by foundations, philanthropic foundations, American government has no hand in anything. American government does fund science projects like any countries government fund science projects in that country, higher than such projects you know there are organizations like National Health, National science foundation, and they give grants to universities, and universities give them to scientists who their projects, so in the end I guess the money comes from American government, American government gets money from me, because I'm a tax payer, unless you are in Greece or somewhere, most people pay taxes. And when you pay taxes, that's what the government gets. I understand in France you pay a lot of taxes, right, and in return you get a lot of things. So that's really what happens. Did I answer your question?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK. Just to be clear, I don't work for anyone, I'm independent contractor working for myself. I’ve no boss, which is a very good thing.<br />
<br />
'''Georges:''' Still a few minutes left, so if somebody has another question?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Anything else? Ask me anything.<br />
<br />
== 43'49 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' So we're working for a software which is developed by people in Europe ?? and so on, on mailing list we had some discussions that are a bit too flamatory if I can say, so we have a big discussion about code of conduct, we hit difference of culture in states in Europe, the thing is, would you say that code of conduct is a law or not?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, certainly not.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Because many people reacted to , thinking, of course it is not an official law imposed, it was the community organising itself and, but for many people reacted, in particular people from Europe reacted to this, or a group of people, as a group is trying to impose a law, and if it's a code of conduct it’s a law, and if it's a law there should be distinctions, punishments if people...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, I would say it's not a law, it is something agreed upon by a group, let's say you invite me to your house for diner, you invite all of us to your house for diner tonight, and when we come in there you say that we have to take our shoes off before entering. And I decide to not take my shoes off, you can throw me out of your house. Is that a law? No. it's just a code of conduct you've established, right? ?? like that, no there could be cultural differences, maybe in my culture it is against my honour to take off my shoes. How dare you say I should take off my shoes? Well then it becomes a problem, right? So that's always there, so no I don't think code of conduct is law, and ?? it’s a really good thing because if you can come to a conclusion, then you manage to create something without involving law. And that's the thing we're trying to get at, because lawyers are expensive and confusion etcetera. In the end of course if a legal rule is broken, the law would come in, right? I mean if I come into your house and take off my shoes and come in and everything than I steal you're cutlery something like that, then I've broken law, I committed a crime and you can report me. It may not be worth it, if I've just stolen a fork, but I've broken a law. But I personally don't think code of conduct is law, I do understand the difficulty a code of conduct cross-cultural situation because definitely the major differences between America and Europe in terms of cultural expectations.<br />
<br />
== 46'55 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:'' So what do you think about strict chairman.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Strict chairman? Very, very important. <br />
Out of time! Thank you!</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es&diff=81360Ethique et l'intégrité collecte données2018-11-06T16:04:55Z<p>JennyB : /* 17'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB */ ajout commentaire avec slides, fin 19mn04 + ajout titre slide suivante</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
<br />
'''Titre :''' Ethique et intégrité de la collecte et du partage des données - science citoyenne et autres projets d'Open Science<br />
<br />
'''Titre VO IETF=[en-US] :''' Ethics and Integrity of Data Collection and Sharing - citizen science and other open science projects<br />
<br />
'''Intervenant :''' Puneet Kishor <br />
<br />
'''Lieu :''' RMLL2015 - Beauvais<br />
<br />
'''Date :''' Juillet 2015<br />
<br />
'''Durée :''' 47'10"<br />
<br />
'''[http://videos-cdn.rmll.info/videos2015/ubicast/web/showroom/126-ethique-et-lintegrite-de-la-collecte_1f5a/v1253b456c154lcspb36_high.webm Lien]''' vers la '''la vidéo'''<br />
<br />
==Transcription==<br />
<br />
<br />
==00' J'essaye, MO, cqfd93, CBA==<br />
Rencontres Mondiales du Logiciel Libre. Beauvais 2015<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Eh bien, nous allons commencer la conférence suivante et Corinne tu es avec nous, tout va bien. Je donne la parole. Ah, votre microphone est ici. Your microphone is there. I shall not translate.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' What's that?<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur:''' I shall not translate, because...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' That's OK, OK.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Ça va pour l’anglais tout le monde ?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I apologize, I am going to talk in English. but it will give you a chance to practice your English with me. My French is much worse than your English, you don't want me to be doing that anyway. This is going to be a very different presentation, I think, from most of the presentations you've been hearing. Most of them has been about software. This is about matter issues, bigger issues, not bigger, I don't mean more noble but bigger in terms of more complicated issues about ethics and integrity and what we can or cannot, or should or should not do.<br />
<br />
So hopefully you will find this of interest and I will want your reactions to that. It's very good that the conservation, if I understand correctly, ended with a little bit of talk about terms of services and licenses ???, is that right? I can have got that, you now, my French is not good and my Spanish is not good and I don't know any Portuguese but I could get that much little bit.<br />
<br />
I actually used to work for an organization called Creative Commons. How many people have heard of Creative Commons?<br />
<br />
I am surprised that there are few people who have not heard of Creative Commons. Creative Commons is the organization that makes copyright licenses, one of which is actually [NdT:now] used by Wikipedia for everything that is published on Wikipedia. And CC licenses as they are called are Creative Commons copyright licenses, I worked at Creative Commons for three years as the manager of Science and Data policy.<br />
<br />
So my focus is more on science and the application of licensing information to scientific data and scientific software. <br />
<br />
In this presentation I'm going to go in a slightly different but related direction.<br />
<br />
How many people here understand what is a license?<br />
<br />
No, no, it's easier than meaning of life. Can you tell me in very short what is a license?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Very good! A license is a permission. You can do something with my work or whatever that I have licensed. A license is a permission given in advance without knowing what you may do or not do. Think of a notice on a park, it says "You can come and sit here and enjoy the park", that's a license to enjoy the park. The person who's put the notice doesn't know who's going to enjoy the park, but it has been put there in the future for anyone to enjoy the park, that's a license.<br />
License is based upon some kind of underlying law. There is something that gives me the right to give you the permission, right? This is Pablo's computer, he gave me the permission to use his computer. If it was not his computer, he couldn't have given me per- well, he could have given me permission but wouldn't have meant anything, right? Because he doesn't have the right to give it to me. So in order for me to license something, I have to have the rights on it, that I can license.<br />
In the world of intellectual property, there is a right called Copyright Law. How many of you understand what is Copyright Law? Even generally.<br />
<br />
==05' Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Can you tell me what is copyright law, short?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Someone else: Can you tell me what is copyright law?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Try it! No?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Copyright law is a law that gives me the first right in the benefits that I may get from things I create, OK? So if I write a poetry or if I write a song or make a film or make a Wikipedia page, I immediately get rights on it and I get the benefit or the first chance of benefiting from those. And then, based on that, I can give those rights to others and I do that using a license. If you go to any Wikipedia page or any page and if you go to the very bottom of it, terms of use, somewhere there will be written that "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply". The person who wrote this had rights, that person then gave away those rights using this license. This license was made by Creative Commons where I used to work. OK, so that's the connection. OK. Now, Let's come back to my talk.<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 01 sur 47 mn 10 copyright law licence : end of intro--><br />
<br />
So you all are now experts in copyright law and you all are now experts in licenses. But there are things which are not covered by copyright law and if they are not covered by copyright law, I don’t have rights in it that I can license away, and if I can't do that then how does the world work? And that is the subject of my talk. As you can see I've gone beyond the Creative Commons basically.<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 34 --><br />
=== Approving conventional science projects ===<br />
Conventional science projects, and I'm using the word "conventional" to mean the most common place science projects that happen in universities and higher research institutions, if they involve human subjects, they have to be approved. I don't know the situation in France, but I'm hundred percent sure it probably is the same as in the United States. There is some independent body that has to approve your project to ensure that you're going to treat your human subject with respect. In the United States, these bodies are called '''Institutional Review Boards''' (IRBs) <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 20 -->. When I want to make such a project <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 25 ??? il mange ses mots mais ca va --> and I want to study behavior or I want to study people and their behavior on anything, it could be a social sciences project, it could be a health project, it really doesn't matter. If humans are involved, I have to get the project approved, and the IRB which are independent bodies, they will review my project and they will ask me a lot of questions and they'll make it very difficult for me. In fact they will make sure that I'm doing everything correctly and that I am not going to do anything that will in any way harm or disrespect the humans that I'm studying. <!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 07 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going to be getting any data from humans, I will inform them, so if I am going to be studying you, I will inform you in advance as to what I'm getting from you and you will have the option to leave the study if you want. Understood? OK.<br />
So that's a very very basic step in all science project. IRBs are like the ethical watchguards. Typically, IRBs do their review in the beginning of a project, and they review the project and then they say "yes you can do it" or "no you can't do it" or "yes you can do it but you have to make these corrections etc, etc"<br />
OK? Yeah?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 54 --><br />
<br />
== 09'53 Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA(+son) et relu JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 55 sur 47 mn 10 relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going too fast, let me know, I mean I know when you people talk really fast in French I can't understand. I'm learning French, I understand if you speak slow, but I can understand the same thing with English.<br />
<br />
=== Citizen Science === <!-- Temps vidéo : 10 mn 21, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
'''But what about … Citizen Science?''' Have you heard the term Citizen Science? Has anyone here heard the term Citizen Science? George you have… no? Nobody has heard the term Citizen Science besides George? George, can you tell me what is Citizen Science? You can tell in French.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' C'est de la science faite par des non spécialistes, par des passionnés. By passionate people, not specialists.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, so there's several kinds of Citizen Science, typically Citizen Science involves, it does involve a specialist, say me, but then I employ, not employ as in payment, but I recruit a lot of common citizens who are not specialists to help me do the project.<br />
<br />
Have you heard of a product called "Galaxy Zoo"? Galaxy Zoo is a very famous Citizen Science project. Zooniverse is the platform on which Galaxy Zoo is based.<br />
<br />
There's a very famous project called the Cornell Birds Survey. Every year, Cornell University in the United States does this bird survey where citizens from all over the United States for a specified period go out and count birds. And it's been going on for more than a decade. It's a very rich project, yes.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I wouldn't call it Citizen Science although it does involve getting permission from the person whose computer on which you're running SETI@home, I wouldn't call it Citizen Science, I would just call it more like "distributed computing", you know, that's really what I'm doing here, OK. <br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah, exactly, and the work can be of different kinds or quality. So I can ask you all to feel a survey, or I can ask you all to complete some task for me, or I can ask you all to report me every time that your leaving, or something like that, right. I can employ your muscles, I can employ your eyes, or I can employ your brain to help me in analyze something, etc.<br />
<br />
So, Citizen Science is becoming very popular. It's becoming very, very popular because with the advent of the Internet and particularly with the advent of something like this [NdT:mobile phone shown], which is really a very powerful computer: I mean this is more powerful than a laptop that I add about five years ago. There's a lot of things I can do: it is a GPS, it's a camera, it is all kinds of sensors, that's a light sensor. I mean this is unbelievable, right? I mean, you know... And it's in my pocket. So this is... And everyone has one. So it's allowing people to do settling signs, distributed signs. Let have a quote, that says: "... is changing the relationship between science and society by fostering more collaborative, interdisciplinary research."<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13 mn 35, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --><br />
<br />
== 13'36 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB +son ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn37, titre de la slide --> <br />
=== How do we evaluate, approve and monitor citizen science projects ===<br />
How do we approve, evaluate and monitor some citizen science projects, that's the theme of my presentation.<br />
<br />
==== Three kinds of open projects ====<br />
<br />
There are three kinds of projects according to a paper that I found. <br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn47, sous-titre de la slide : contributory --> <br />
<br />
Projects where citizens '''contribute''' some information, projects where they actually not just contribute some information, but they also help '''collaborate''' and help design or even analyze some information. Galaxy Zoo has a sort of that doc, you actually see some information and you tell whether it's a star or a nebula or... You know, you actually do something, you think about something and you make a judgment call.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn23, sous-titre de la slide : Co-created --> <br />
And then the various sort of the top end of Citizen Science projects would be where scientists and citizens get together and try and figure out what to study.<br />
<br />
There is actually another fourth kind of citizen science project that's happening a lot: '''self-organized'''. <!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn39, sous-titre de la slide : self-organized --> How many here have heard the term quantified-self? Can you tell me what's quantified-self?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn52 --><br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible <!-- Temps vidéo : 15mn07 --><br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, kind of. For example my phone has a motion sensor. Every time I walk it counts the number of steps I walked. And it basically allows me to keep track of how many steps I've walked and if I go here and click on a button, it'll tell me that today I've walked five thousand steps. Five thousands one hundred and five, which actually is not a lot, I should be walking twice as much more. It also tells me that I've climbed two floors, so I haven't done much climbing today.<br />
<br />
But quantified-self is, I mean it could be anything, it could be how much you walk, it could be taking your blood pressure on a daily basis, it could be measuring your heartbeat on a daily basis, and there are people, there is a very weird place in this world, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's called San Francisco, where people are obsessed with this kind of stuff, and there are constantly measuring everything about themselves. They've got like you know, they just get stuck everywhere and they are just measuring everything, which is why I run away from there and I came to Paris, where nobody seems to be obsessed by it at all. But, that's quantified-self. <!-- Temps vidéo : 16mn19 --><br />
<br />
But people are taking this quantification further into analysis, and people are grouping their data together and trying to figure out what's wrong with them, trying to cure diseases, people who have certain kinds of diseases are building websites where they can collaborate and talk to each other and say "hey, you know, this is happening to me, is it happening to you also? I get headaches when I drink red wine, do you get headaches when you drink red wine also?". Things like that they are doing, right? These are sort of self-organized scientific projects that are happening.<br />
<br />
So then these projects are happening outside conventional academies, they are not happening at the universities, they are not happening at Université Marie Curie, they are not happening at Stanford University, they are just happening at, just people, meeting together and doing these things, right? Who monitors these projects?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15 --><br />
<br />
== 17'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA et JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15, relecture son JennyB, 6 nov 2018 --> <br />
'''How do we approve non-conventional projects?''' <br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn18, titre de la slide, avec 4 puces qu'on devrait faire resortir (mise en forme) :<br />
citizen science, sensors, self-measurement (quantified self), participants led research (PLR) lu à 18mn15 --> <br />
<br />
So, the thing that I want to ask about is, and actually I'm going to ask you a lot of question, I'm not gonna provide any answers.<br />
The thing that I'm really asking about is: how do we approve non-conventional projects?<br />
<br />
If you decide to do a study on yourself, maybe you are taking samples out of your body, and measuring them or something. Is that ethical? Is it ethical to harm yourself? I mean the society says no. It is illegal to commit suicide. In many societies at least, in many societies. So the issue really becomes how do we evaluate and monitor projects that lie outside things that are governed by law?<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn15 --> <br />
Citizen science, sensors, self-measurement, participant led research, that's one of the big things that are very popular. As I mentioned people have certain diseases and they make a website where people of same disease can come together and share their experiences. You know, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease, different kinds of cancers, a lot of people want, they want somewhat comfort in a community, right? And they are sometimes giving each other advice and they are doing it outside the mechanism of medicine and health laws and the institutions. <!-- Temps vidéo : 18mn57, titre de la slide : substitute for IRBs ? --> <br />
<br />
So what is the substitute for IRBs in this question, that's something that I'm thinking about.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 19mn04, titre de la slide : what about ongoing monitoring --><br />
=== What about ongoing monitoring ===<br />
<br />
== 19'04 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
'''What about ongoing monitoring?'''<br />
And what about ongoing monitoring? Even if you approve such a project, even if there is, even if you set up a system where you can approve some kind of projects that's going on, how do you monitor it on an ongoing basis? Where people are doing things like they may be collecting data on others, what if I'm collecting data on you and misreport it? I tell something bad about you or I tell something good about myself that doesn't exist. You know, what if I recruit all of you to measure water samples from your village wells, and you find that it's not very good, and you decide not to report it, right? So these are the issues. Or you find that somebody else's well is not very good, and that person hasn't reported. Should you tell on that person, that person hasn't reported, you know, because then there's the issue of privacy that comes in.<br />
<br />
So invading privacy of others, if there's a citizen science project let's say, let's say I recruited all of you because I'm studying nesting habits of certain kinds of birds; And you all are bird lovers and I've recruited all of you, and you are supposed to go to the nests of the birds and take photographs and bring them back to me. Turns out that you're also a collector of eggs, and you steal the eggs, right? That's the issue so harming existing data or harming natural environment or culture property, these are the issues when there is no mechanism for ongoing monitoring that might exist in a more conventional academy.<br />
<br />
== 20'49 transcrit par Cpm, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
'''Legales tools are…'''<br />
So the reality is that legal tools that exist such as copyright law, etc, are inadequate,<br />
they either don't exist, and if they exist, they are inadequate, they are inappropriate, they are expensive, nobody likes lawyers, lawyers are expensive and they are confusing, and they really scare us.<br />
I mean you know, how many of you have ever been to a court? No one.<br />
And a lot of people will never go to a court in their normal lives.<br />
I mean a normal life, doesn't involve lawyers.<br />
And it doesn't involve courts and yet our life is ruled by laws.<br />
Right? So, it's an interesting thing that we have all these laws and yet laws don't really, you know, come in to play in our life on a daily basis.<br />
<br />
== 21'41 transcrit par Cpm, relu son CBA ==<br />
Slide 14/10 '''Do no evil'''<br />
<br />
So, one solution could be do no evil. You eared that one, right?<br />
Do you know evil?<br />
That hasn't gone very well.<br />
There is a big company that has this, think all do no evil.<br />
And they have done even evil up there.<br />
So, maybe, the thing that I, I'm thinking quite a bit about, is about just mutual respect and social contract.<br />
So how many of you have eared the term social contract? "Contrat social", here we go, french, yeah, Rousseau, yeah.<br />
So this is notion that we give up something to get something. Right?<br />
We, individuals, when we become member of a society or a country, we give up some of our individual freedoms, in return for the safety and other things that the society provide.<br />
That's the social contract, right?<br />
I'll be a citizen of France and France will look after me, that kind of a thing. Somebody laugh.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes because maybe too much.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah. But anyway, that's the notion of social contract.<br />
This notion that there is something that bind all of the groups together.<br />
<br />
== 23'03 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Good behaviour by another name'''<br />
<br />
So, here are different names for good behavior. You know, a lot of conferences nowadays have this thing called "code of conduct". And of course social contract, doctors have this thing called Hippocratic oath, you know the little Rx, you know "I'll never harm anyone, bla bla bla etc", we have something called "honor code university", I don't know if you have that here? In the United States there's a honor code that you will not cheat, like we can get exams where you take the exam to your home, and you bring it back two or three days later but it's a honor code that you will not ask someone else, you know. Mutual respect…<br />
So what I'm saying is interestingly there are things they may not always work, but there are things out there which are not based in law. And they are designed to make communities work, OK? So can something like this be used or maybe a combination of these things be used?<br />
<br />
== 24'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Importance of data integrity'''<br />
<br />
One issue that becomes very important that I'm really interested in is the notion of data integrity. <br />
<br />
This thing [holding his phone] is telling me that I walked five thousand one hundred and five steps today. What if it's over-reporting? What if it's under-reporting? I don't know. Should I just believe it? We go to live believing a lot of things, not questioning them, right? Until we get some other evidence to the contrary.<br />
<br />
There is a lot of focus in this conference and in my life, I work at creative cons as I said, on open license, right? First of all I guarantee you ninety percent of the people don't know what an open license means when they say "open license". OK, fair enough. Like people don't know what organic means, but they shop organic food, right?<br />
<br />
Open is good, but is not a substitute for good science, 'cause in the end science is asking certain questions, and that is more important than anything. What would you rather? Open but crappy science, closed but good science? If you're a scientist you would probably choose good science, because a scientist is motivated by answering questions. By finding insights of something.<br />
<br />
So the question, and this is particularly useful not so much in software, but in hardware. Open hardware. What if the design is open but the data coming out of the hardware are bad? So let's say I make a hardware, I made some fantastic sensor, you know like the Star Wars tricorder it can measure everything, and I publish it under an open license, right? And you come in, you see that, you like it, you take it down, you're a great guy, we are not very honest. You take my open design and you make some changes to it, or you maybe cut some corners and make something which has license opened but now is not producing right data. And what if this thing was measuring something that was important for environmental health or public health, maybe reporting on air quality, maybe reporting on water quality? there could be serious consequences for public health.<br />
<br />
So the issue of data integrity is very important which has nothing to do with licensing, but it's very important for open science and the quality of science.<br />
<br />
== 26'55 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Evaluating data integrity'''<br />
<br />
So, there is a study that I found where they found many ways in which you can actually evaluate data integrity. <br />
<br />
By the way, all my ??? talk is on my website and, no software's required, just a browser, just click you know, it's a program I wrote and so it's available to anyone. So you can see all the links are there.<br />
<br />
So you can measure different... Think of these like vectors along which you can measure data integrity. Is the data accessible, believable, complete, consistent, relevant, secure, etc. There is many things you can measure, you can add more to this or subtract from this. They are dimensions that you can measure.<br />
<br />
Building can do as look a reputation, or think of it like social capital. This is very common on web communities, right? How many likes for example, or how many re-tweets, this is one example of some kind of trust and something. We have reputation scores in communities that are software, particularly software communities well you know, there is someone who's answered a lot of questions. Has people used Stackoverflow? Stackoverflow has the reputation, all has this reputation system basically, and as your reputation grows more you can do more things, etc.<br />
So that's sort like trust across social networks, and what I call co-calibration where you can take yourself and calibrate yourself against someone else, or take a piece of hardware and calibrate a against a non-truth, maybe a reference hardware. So, that's another way for evaluating data integrity.<br />
<br />
The bottom line is that there are mechanisms out there for making our lives run in a community fashion, without involving law. What are some of those mechanisms that can be taken together or combined into something that can be used to evaluate and monitor open science projects. And this is the thing that I actually find the most interesting right now and sort of my post-license world of work.<br />
<br />
== 29'37 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
That's all the talk I have. I think I have a lot of time left, right?<br />
So, I really want people to speak up and give their thoughts and, you know, that's not be a one-way thing. feel free to speak in English, I won't feel offended at all, or speak in esperanto, I don't care, Georges will translate it.<br />
<br />
Please I really want to hear your thoughts, don't be shy, I mean there is nothing wrong, I don't know enough about this remember, I want the questions, I want answers. And I don't think we will all gonna get answers here. So if you have something, tell me.... Come on, you're french, you have an opinion on everything!<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' I'm sorry for my English which is very poor, I just have a question about, when you said that people which are ill can share about their illness and they try to share their illness, have you got some example of sharing medicines, how can it be possible with the pharmaceutical industry?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' You mean actually sharing actual medicines? Actual tablets?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Or advices, everything, you know...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' There are a lot of communities on the internet, very very simple searches will find, there is one called "Crohnology" (https://crohnology.com/) which is for a disease called Crohn's disease, there is a website called "PatientsLikeMe" (https://www.patientslikeme.com/), which actually allows you to find other people who may have same common illness, see what happens is, if I have an illness that's very difficult to treat, then I'm looking for answers. And maybe my doctor can't give me all the answers, so I look for other people with similar illness, right? And internet allows me now to meet people of similar interests, or similar goals right? So we can share information, so there are good things in here, it gives me solice, I mean it gives me like comfort knowing that somebody else has similar things and can maybe give me some words of wisdom or some advice.<br />
<br />
There is a danger also, and the danger is that we could be giving each other wrong advice, right? And this is where the medical profession is kind of ??, should people be out there be dispensing advice to each other, or giving each other, god forbid, give some medicines actually, without advice you know, "you have to drink hot water with something, because it works I swear it works!", right? And people do that, and you find that the correct thing is not being treated, so there is danger also in it.<br />
<br />
Some of these groups have actually become very active, and have become very effective, they're very good, I think. I don't know the answer, I am torn between this notion of people know what is best for them, and then every day I see stupid things, people doing stupid things and I wonder they don't know what is best for them, you know. I don't know the answer to that, I thing there has to be some balance.<br />
<br />
You heard of 23andMe (https://www.23andme.com)? It is a company in San Francisco and you give them 99 dollars and they will mail you a little kit and you rub some saliva on it, you mail it back to them and they will decode your DNA, and make it accessible to you over the Web. 99 bucks, what a deal! Sometimes they have a two-for-one, you and your friend, only for one price. The problem was, that they were initially claiming that "we will show you your DNA, and you can then find out problems about potentially diseases", so maybe you look at that on the you realize "Oh my god, I have something which makes me in 9O% likely to get breast cancer"<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' They assume, that you can read your DNA. I can that with my DNA, I will understand something.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, they claimed they'll make it easy to understand. But the problem was that that was like giving diagnostic advice, and it hasn't been like that, because there are rules about, because then it becomes a medical device that you're selling, and you're diagnosing something. So there is one thing to do something which is educational or entertainment or whatever, another thing saying it's medicine, because it's governed by certain laws. Well there is things people fell on both sides, some people say they want to know, do you have a right to know everything about yourself? I mean that's a big question, right?<br />
<br />
== 35'35 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Thank you for the talk. For me, there is something to do with Wikipedia structure, we need at least three levels of comprehension for everybody, for engineering specialists and for scientists which have a tool to understand very high level of the insides, not everybody has the education to understand, you have this responsibility to make all answers as we can the complexity understandable for everybody, and this is an obligation I think for openness to make as well as we can the complexity...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' On Wikipedia?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Wikipedia is a good example...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I've no argument to that, I think it's a very good goal to have, I don't know who's gonna have to do that, it's expensive to explain things, it takes a lot of time to... Simple things are hard, to make something simple is very, very hard, and a lot of people are getting paid a lot of money to make things simple, so I don't know who's gonna do it but I agree with you, I've no problem with that.<br />
<br />
== 37'45 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Come on... Nothing? I'm sorry I have more questions than answers, but this is a topic that...<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Do you know if the current review boards in the United States and France are actually considering this question and thinking about how to involve this kind of citizen science?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no. Well I don't know anything about France at all, but definitely in the US no. Citizen science is popular, but it's not still mainstream that has entered the realm of review boards. If a project is constructed in a way that is a conventional project, maybe I’m a scientist in the university, and I’m going to involve a lot of citizens in there, then I'll probably have to go to an institution review board, and it will judge my project, but not because it's citizen science necessarily, but more because it happens to be a scientific project that involves human beings. There are certainly not thinking about, as far as I know, about ongoing monitoring of projects and how the behaviour of citizens amongst themselves and on other citizens, how would that be impacted. As far as I know, no, and this is very new. And this notion, there is an increased conversation about this notion of social contract, that we have some responsibility, toward each other, and also the researcher has a responsibility toward the person being studied, and vice-versa, like for example if I go to a hospital, and I'm going to be treated for say, high blood pressure, hypertension or something, do I have an obligation to make my information available for the benefit of others? Because I am benefiting from the knowledge of others. So that conversation about social contracts has started but it's very, very much in the beginning. Nobody as far as I know knows anything about what such a contract would look like.<br />
<br />
== 40'30 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' J'essaie en anglais ou quelqu'un peut traduire ? En fait, c'est une question, peut-être, qui fâche. De quoi vous vivez ? Qui vous paie ? et est-ce que c'est le gouvernement américain is helping association like Creative Commons, and who pays you to do this? Because from my eyes you're the incarnation of general interest and as a French citizen I’m asking myself which organization, and I hope you will answer me American government is paying you?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' No, sure? <br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' American government is not paying me.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Or federal government? Californian, you're from San Francisco...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK, I used to work at Creative Commons, I don't work at Creative Commons now, so not only is Creative Commons not paying me, not only is American government not paying, actually no one is paying me because I'm jobless, I'm actually looking for a job. I'm jobless and homeless.<br />
<br />
So the second question I think you eluded that American government was paying Creative Commons, no American government is not paying Creative Commons. Creative Commons is a non profit organization founded by foundations, philanthropic foundations, American government has no hand in anything. American government does fund science projects like any countries government fund science projects in that country, higher than such projects you know there are organizations like National Health, National science foundation, and they give grants to universities, and universities give them to scientists who their projects, so in the end I guess the money comes from American government, American government gets money from me, because I'm a tax payer, unless you are in Greece or somewhere, most people pay taxes. And when you pay taxes, that's what the government gets. I understand in France you pay a lot of taxes, right, and in return you get a lot of things. So that's really what happens. Did I answer your question?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK. Just to be clear, I don't work for anyone, I'm independent contractor working for myself. I’ve no boss, which is a very good thing.<br />
<br />
'''Georges:''' Still a few minutes left, so if somebody has another question?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Anything else? Ask me anything.<br />
<br />
== 43'49 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' So we're working for a software which is developed by people in Europe ?? and so on, on mailing list we had some discussions that are a bit too flamatory if I can say, so we have a big discussion about code of conduct, we hit difference of culture in states in Europe, the thing is, would you say that code of conduct is a law or not?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, certainly not.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Because many people reacted to , thinking, of course it is not an official law imposed, it was the community organising itself and, but for many people reacted, in particular people from Europe reacted to this, or a group of people, as a group is trying to impose a law, and if it's a code of conduct it’s a law, and if it's a law there should be distinctions, punishments if people...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, I would say it's not a law, it is something agreed upon by a group, let's say you invite me to your house for diner, you invite all of us to your house for diner tonight, and when we come in there you say that we have to take our shoes off before entering. And I decide to not take my shoes off, you can throw me out of your house. Is that a law? No. it's just a code of conduct you've established, right? ?? like that, no there could be cultural differences, maybe in my culture it is against my honour to take off my shoes. How dare you say I should take off my shoes? Well then it becomes a problem, right? So that's always there, so no I don't think code of conduct is law, and ?? it’s a really good thing because if you can come to a conclusion, then you manage to create something without involving law. And that's the thing we're trying to get at, because lawyers are expensive and confusion etcetera. In the end of course if a legal rule is broken, the law would come in, right? I mean if I come into your house and take off my shoes and come in and everything than I steal you're cutlery something like that, then I've broken law, I committed a crime and you can report me. It may not be worth it, if I've just stolen a fork, but I've broken a law. But I personally don't think code of conduct is law, I do understand the difficulty a code of conduct cross-cultural situation because definitely the major differences between America and Europe in terms of cultural expectations.<br />
<br />
== 46'55 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:'' So what do you think about strict chairman.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Strict chairman? Very, very important. <br />
Out of time! Thank you!</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es&diff=81359Ethique et l'intégrité collecte données2018-11-06T15:50:39Z<p>JennyB : /* 13'36 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB+son */ va de 13mn37 à 17mn15. Titre des slides ajoutés. Relecture JennyB (avec video et son) ok, nov 2018</p>
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<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
<br />
'''Titre :''' Ethique et intégrité de la collecte et du partage des données - science citoyenne et autres projets d'Open Science<br />
<br />
'''Titre VO IETF=[en-US] :''' Ethics and Integrity of Data Collection and Sharing - citizen science and other open science projects<br />
<br />
'''Intervenant :''' Puneet Kishor <br />
<br />
'''Lieu :''' RMLL2015 - Beauvais<br />
<br />
'''Date :''' Juillet 2015<br />
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'''Durée :''' 47'10"<br />
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'''[http://videos-cdn.rmll.info/videos2015/ubicast/web/showroom/126-ethique-et-lintegrite-de-la-collecte_1f5a/v1253b456c154lcspb36_high.webm Lien]''' vers la '''la vidéo'''<br />
<br />
==Transcription==<br />
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==00' J'essaye, MO, cqfd93, CBA==<br />
Rencontres Mondiales du Logiciel Libre. Beauvais 2015<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Eh bien, nous allons commencer la conférence suivante et Corinne tu es avec nous, tout va bien. Je donne la parole. Ah, votre microphone est ici. Your microphone is there. I shall not translate.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' What's that?<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur:''' I shall not translate, because...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' That's OK, OK.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Ça va pour l’anglais tout le monde ?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I apologize, I am going to talk in English. but it will give you a chance to practice your English with me. My French is much worse than your English, you don't want me to be doing that anyway. This is going to be a very different presentation, I think, from most of the presentations you've been hearing. Most of them has been about software. This is about matter issues, bigger issues, not bigger, I don't mean more noble but bigger in terms of more complicated issues about ethics and integrity and what we can or cannot, or should or should not do.<br />
<br />
So hopefully you will find this of interest and I will want your reactions to that. It's very good that the conservation, if I understand correctly, ended with a little bit of talk about terms of services and licenses ???, is that right? I can have got that, you now, my French is not good and my Spanish is not good and I don't know any Portuguese but I could get that much little bit.<br />
<br />
I actually used to work for an organization called Creative Commons. How many people have heard of Creative Commons?<br />
<br />
I am surprised that there are few people who have not heard of Creative Commons. Creative Commons is the organization that makes copyright licenses, one of which is actually [NdT:now] used by Wikipedia for everything that is published on Wikipedia. And CC licenses as they are called are Creative Commons copyright licenses, I worked at Creative Commons for three years as the manager of Science and Data policy.<br />
<br />
So my focus is more on science and the application of licensing information to scientific data and scientific software. <br />
<br />
In this presentation I'm going to go in a slightly different but related direction.<br />
<br />
How many people here understand what is a license?<br />
<br />
No, no, it's easier than meaning of life. Can you tell me in very short what is a license?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Very good! A license is a permission. You can do something with my work or whatever that I have licensed. A license is a permission given in advance without knowing what you may do or not do. Think of a notice on a park, it says "You can come and sit here and enjoy the park", that's a license to enjoy the park. The person who's put the notice doesn't know who's going to enjoy the park, but it has been put there in the future for anyone to enjoy the park, that's a license.<br />
License is based upon some kind of underlying law. There is something that gives me the right to give you the permission, right? This is Pablo's computer, he gave me the permission to use his computer. If it was not his computer, he couldn't have given me per- well, he could have given me permission but wouldn't have meant anything, right? Because he doesn't have the right to give it to me. So in order for me to license something, I have to have the rights on it, that I can license.<br />
In the world of intellectual property, there is a right called Copyright Law. How many of you understand what is Copyright Law? Even generally.<br />
<br />
==05' Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Can you tell me what is copyright law, short?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Someone else: Can you tell me what is copyright law?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Try it! No?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Copyright law is a law that gives me the first right in the benefits that I may get from things I create, OK? So if I write a poetry or if I write a song or make a film or make a Wikipedia page, I immediately get rights on it and I get the benefit or the first chance of benefiting from those. And then, based on that, I can give those rights to others and I do that using a license. If you go to any Wikipedia page or any page and if you go to the very bottom of it, terms of use, somewhere there will be written that "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply". The person who wrote this had rights, that person then gave away those rights using this license. This license was made by Creative Commons where I used to work. OK, so that's the connection. OK. Now, Let's come back to my talk.<br />
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<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 01 sur 47 mn 10 copyright law licence : end of intro--><br />
<br />
So you all are now experts in copyright law and you all are now experts in licenses. But there are things which are not covered by copyright law and if they are not covered by copyright law, I don’t have rights in it that I can license away, and if I can't do that then how does the world work? And that is the subject of my talk. As you can see I've gone beyond the Creative Commons basically.<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 34 --><br />
=== Approving conventional science projects ===<br />
Conventional science projects, and I'm using the word "conventional" to mean the most common place science projects that happen in universities and higher research institutions, if they involve human subjects, they have to be approved. I don't know the situation in France, but I'm hundred percent sure it probably is the same as in the United States. There is some independent body that has to approve your project to ensure that you're going to treat your human subject with respect. In the United States, these bodies are called '''Institutional Review Boards''' (IRBs) <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 20 -->. When I want to make such a project <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 25 ??? il mange ses mots mais ca va --> and I want to study behavior or I want to study people and their behavior on anything, it could be a social sciences project, it could be a health project, it really doesn't matter. If humans are involved, I have to get the project approved, and the IRB which are independent bodies, they will review my project and they will ask me a lot of questions and they'll make it very difficult for me. In fact they will make sure that I'm doing everything correctly and that I am not going to do anything that will in any way harm or disrespect the humans that I'm studying. <!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 07 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going to be getting any data from humans, I will inform them, so if I am going to be studying you, I will inform you in advance as to what I'm getting from you and you will have the option to leave the study if you want. Understood? OK.<br />
So that's a very very basic step in all science project. IRBs are like the ethical watchguards. Typically, IRBs do their review in the beginning of a project, and they review the project and then they say "yes you can do it" or "no you can't do it" or "yes you can do it but you have to make these corrections etc, etc"<br />
OK? Yeah?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 54 --><br />
<br />
== 09'53 Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA(+son) et relu JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 55 sur 47 mn 10 relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going too fast, let me know, I mean I know when you people talk really fast in French I can't understand. I'm learning French, I understand if you speak slow, but I can understand the same thing with English.<br />
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=== Citizen Science === <!-- Temps vidéo : 10 mn 21, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
'''But what about … Citizen Science?''' Have you heard the term Citizen Science? Has anyone here heard the term Citizen Science? George you have… no? Nobody has heard the term Citizen Science besides George? George, can you tell me what is Citizen Science? You can tell in French.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' C'est de la science faite par des non spécialistes, par des passionnés. By passionate people, not specialists.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, so there's several kinds of Citizen Science, typically Citizen Science involves, it does involve a specialist, say me, but then I employ, not employ as in payment, but I recruit a lot of common citizens who are not specialists to help me do the project.<br />
<br />
Have you heard of a product called "Galaxy Zoo"? Galaxy Zoo is a very famous Citizen Science project. Zooniverse is the platform on which Galaxy Zoo is based.<br />
<br />
There's a very famous project called the Cornell Birds Survey. Every year, Cornell University in the United States does this bird survey where citizens from all over the United States for a specified period go out and count birds. And it's been going on for more than a decade. It's a very rich project, yes.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I wouldn't call it Citizen Science although it does involve getting permission from the person whose computer on which you're running SETI@home, I wouldn't call it Citizen Science, I would just call it more like "distributed computing", you know, that's really what I'm doing here, OK. <br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah, exactly, and the work can be of different kinds or quality. So I can ask you all to feel a survey, or I can ask you all to complete some task for me, or I can ask you all to report me every time that your leaving, or something like that, right. I can employ your muscles, I can employ your eyes, or I can employ your brain to help me in analyze something, etc.<br />
<br />
So, Citizen Science is becoming very popular. It's becoming very, very popular because with the advent of the Internet and particularly with the advent of something like this [NdT:mobile phone shown], which is really a very powerful computer: I mean this is more powerful than a laptop that I add about five years ago. There's a lot of things I can do: it is a GPS, it's a camera, it is all kinds of sensors, that's a light sensor. I mean this is unbelievable, right? I mean, you know... And it's in my pocket. So this is... And everyone has one. So it's allowing people to do settling signs, distributed signs. Let have a quote, that says: "... is changing the relationship between science and society by fostering more collaborative, interdisciplinary research."<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13 mn 35, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --><br />
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== 13'36 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB +son ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn37, titre de la slide --> <br />
=== How do we evaluate, approve and monitor citizen science projects ===<br />
How do we approve, evaluate and monitor some citizen science projects, that's the theme of my presentation.<br />
<br />
==== Three kinds of open projects ====<br />
<br />
There are three kinds of projects according to a paper that I found. <br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13mn47, sous-titre de la slide : contributory --> <br />
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Projects where citizens '''contribute''' some information, projects where they actually not just contribute some information, but they also help '''collaborate''' and help design or even analyze some information. Galaxy Zoo has a sort of that doc, you actually see some information and you tell whether it's a star or a nebula or... You know, you actually do something, you think about something and you make a judgment call.<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn23, sous-titre de la slide : Co-created --> <br />
And then the various sort of the top end of Citizen Science projects would be where scientists and citizens get together and try and figure out what to study.<br />
<br />
There is actually another fourth kind of citizen science project that's happening a lot: '''self-organized'''. <!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn39, sous-titre de la slide : self-organized --> How many here have heard the term quantified-self? Can you tell me what's quantified-self?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 14mn52 --><br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible <!-- Temps vidéo : 15mn07 --><br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, kind of. For example my phone has a motion sensor. Every time I walk it counts the number of steps I walked. And it basically allows me to keep track of how many steps I've walked and if I go here and click on a button, it'll tell me that today I've walked five thousand steps. Five thousands one hundred and five, which actually is not a lot, I should be walking twice as much more. It also tells me that I've climbed two floors, so I haven't done much climbing today.<br />
<br />
But quantified-self is, I mean it could be anything, it could be how much you walk, it could be taking your blood pressure on a daily basis, it could be measuring your heartbeat on a daily basis, and there are people, there is a very weird place in this world, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's called San Francisco, where people are obsessed with this kind of stuff, and there are constantly measuring everything about themselves. They've got like you know, they just get stuck everywhere and they are just measuring everything, which is why I run away from there and I came to Paris, where nobody seems to be obsessed by it at all. But, that's quantified-self. <!-- Temps vidéo : 16mn19 --><br />
<br />
But people are taking this quantification further into analysis, and people are grouping their data together and trying to figure out what's wrong with them, trying to cure diseases, people who have certain kinds of diseases are building websites where they can collaborate and talk to each other and say "hey, you know, this is happening to me, is it happening to you also? I get headaches when I drink red wine, do you get headaches when you drink red wine also?". Things like that they are doing, right? These are sort of self-organized scientific projects that are happening.<br />
<br />
So then these projects are happening outside conventional academies, they are not happening at the universities, they are not happening at Université Marie Curie, they are not happening at Stanford University, they are just happening at, just people, meeting together and doing these things, right? Who monitors these projects?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 17mn15 --><br />
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== 17'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
'''How do we approve non-conventional projects?'''<br />
<br />
So, the thing that I want to ask about is, and actually I'm going to ask you a lot of question, I'm not gonna provide any answers.<br />
The thing that I'm really asking about is: how do we approve non-conventional projects?<br />
<br />
If you decide to do a study on yourself, maybe you are taking samples out of your body, and measuring them or something. Is that ethical? Is it ethical to harm yourself? I mean the society says no. It is illegal to commit suicide. In many societies at least, in many societies. So the issue really becomes how do we evaluate and monitor projects that lie outside things that are governed by law?<br />
<br />
Citizen science, sensors, self-measurement, participant led research, that's one of the big things that are very popular. As I mentioned people have certain diseases and they make a website where people of same disease can come together and share their experiences. You know, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease, different kinds of cancers, a lot of people want, they want somewhat comfort in a community, right? And they are sometimes giving each other advice and they are doing it outside the mechanism of medicine and health laws and the institutions.<br />
<br />
So what is the substitute for IRBs in this question, that's something that I'm thinking about.<br />
<br />
== 19'04 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
'''What about ongoing monitoring?'''<br />
And what about ongoing monitoring? Even if you approve such a project, even if there is, even if you set up a system where you can approve some kind of projects that's going on, how do you monitor it on an ongoing basis? Where people are doing things like they may be collecting data on others, what if I'm collecting data on you and misreport it? I tell something bad about you or I tell something good about myself that doesn't exist. You know, what if I recruit all of you to measure water samples from your village wells, and you find that it's not very good, and you decide not to report it, right? So these are the issues. Or you find that somebody else's well is not very good, and that person hasn't reported. Should you tell on that person, that person hasn't reported, you know, because then there's the issue of privacy that comes in.<br />
<br />
So invading privacy of others, if there's a citizen science project let's say, let's say I recruited all of you because I'm studying nesting habits of certain kinds of birds; And you all are bird lovers and I've recruited all of you, and you are supposed to go to the nests of the birds and take photographs and bring them back to me. Turns out that you're also a collector of eggs, and you steal the eggs, right? That's the issue so harming existing data or harming natural environment or culture property, these are the issues when there is no mechanism for ongoing monitoring that might exist in a more conventional academy.<br />
<br />
== 20'49 transcrit par Cpm, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
'''Legales tools are…'''<br />
So the reality is that legal tools that exist such as copyright law, etc, are inadequate,<br />
they either don't exist, and if they exist, they are inadequate, they are inappropriate, they are expensive, nobody likes lawyers, lawyers are expensive and they are confusing, and they really scare us.<br />
I mean you know, how many of you have ever been to a court? No one.<br />
And a lot of people will never go to a court in their normal lives.<br />
I mean a normal life, doesn't involve lawyers.<br />
And it doesn't involve courts and yet our life is ruled by laws.<br />
Right? So, it's an interesting thing that we have all these laws and yet laws don't really, you know, come in to play in our life on a daily basis.<br />
<br />
== 21'41 transcrit par Cpm, relu son CBA ==<br />
Slide 14/10 '''Do no evil'''<br />
<br />
So, one solution could be do no evil. You eared that one, right?<br />
Do you know evil?<br />
That hasn't gone very well.<br />
There is a big company that has this, think all do no evil.<br />
And they have done even evil up there.<br />
So, maybe, the thing that I, I'm thinking quite a bit about, is about just mutual respect and social contract.<br />
So how many of you have eared the term social contract? "Contrat social", here we go, french, yeah, Rousseau, yeah.<br />
So this is notion that we give up something to get something. Right?<br />
We, individuals, when we become member of a society or a country, we give up some of our individual freedoms, in return for the safety and other things that the society provide.<br />
That's the social contract, right?<br />
I'll be a citizen of France and France will look after me, that kind of a thing. Somebody laugh.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes because maybe too much.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah. But anyway, that's the notion of social contract.<br />
This notion that there is something that bind all of the groups together.<br />
<br />
== 23'03 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Good behaviour by another name'''<br />
<br />
So, here are different names for good behavior. You know, a lot of conferences nowadays have this thing called "code of conduct". And of course social contract, doctors have this thing called Hippocratic oath, you know the little Rx, you know "I'll never harm anyone, bla bla bla etc", we have something called "honor code university", I don't know if you have that here? In the United States there's a honor code that you will not cheat, like we can get exams where you take the exam to your home, and you bring it back two or three days later but it's a honor code that you will not ask someone else, you know. Mutual respect…<br />
So what I'm saying is interestingly there are things they may not always work, but there are things out there which are not based in law. And they are designed to make communities work, OK? So can something like this be used or maybe a combination of these things be used?<br />
<br />
== 24'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Importance of data integrity'''<br />
<br />
One issue that becomes very important that I'm really interested in is the notion of data integrity. <br />
<br />
This thing [holding his phone] is telling me that I walked five thousand one hundred and five steps today. What if it's over-reporting? What if it's under-reporting? I don't know. Should I just believe it? We go to live believing a lot of things, not questioning them, right? Until we get some other evidence to the contrary.<br />
<br />
There is a lot of focus in this conference and in my life, I work at creative cons as I said, on open license, right? First of all I guarantee you ninety percent of the people don't know what an open license means when they say "open license". OK, fair enough. Like people don't know what organic means, but they shop organic food, right?<br />
<br />
Open is good, but is not a substitute for good science, 'cause in the end science is asking certain questions, and that is more important than anything. What would you rather? Open but crappy science, closed but good science? If you're a scientist you would probably choose good science, because a scientist is motivated by answering questions. By finding insights of something.<br />
<br />
So the question, and this is particularly useful not so much in software, but in hardware. Open hardware. What if the design is open but the data coming out of the hardware are bad? So let's say I make a hardware, I made some fantastic sensor, you know like the Star Wars tricorder it can measure everything, and I publish it under an open license, right? And you come in, you see that, you like it, you take it down, you're a great guy, we are not very honest. You take my open design and you make some changes to it, or you maybe cut some corners and make something which has license opened but now is not producing right data. And what if this thing was measuring something that was important for environmental health or public health, maybe reporting on air quality, maybe reporting on water quality? there could be serious consequences for public health.<br />
<br />
So the issue of data integrity is very important which has nothing to do with licensing, but it's very important for open science and the quality of science.<br />
<br />
== 26'55 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Evaluating data integrity'''<br />
<br />
So, there is a study that I found where they found many ways in which you can actually evaluate data integrity. <br />
<br />
By the way, all my ??? talk is on my website and, no software's required, just a browser, just click you know, it's a program I wrote and so it's available to anyone. So you can see all the links are there.<br />
<br />
So you can measure different... Think of these like vectors along which you can measure data integrity. Is the data accessible, believable, complete, consistent, relevant, secure, etc. There is many things you can measure, you can add more to this or subtract from this. They are dimensions that you can measure.<br />
<br />
Building can do as look a reputation, or think of it like social capital. This is very common on web communities, right? How many likes for example, or how many re-tweets, this is one example of some kind of trust and something. We have reputation scores in communities that are software, particularly software communities well you know, there is someone who's answered a lot of questions. Has people used Stackoverflow? Stackoverflow has the reputation, all has this reputation system basically, and as your reputation grows more you can do more things, etc.<br />
So that's sort like trust across social networks, and what I call co-calibration where you can take yourself and calibrate yourself against someone else, or take a piece of hardware and calibrate a against a non-truth, maybe a reference hardware. So, that's another way for evaluating data integrity.<br />
<br />
The bottom line is that there are mechanisms out there for making our lives run in a community fashion, without involving law. What are some of those mechanisms that can be taken together or combined into something that can be used to evaluate and monitor open science projects. And this is the thing that I actually find the most interesting right now and sort of my post-license world of work.<br />
<br />
== 29'37 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
That's all the talk I have. I think I have a lot of time left, right?<br />
So, I really want people to speak up and give their thoughts and, you know, that's not be a one-way thing. feel free to speak in English, I won't feel offended at all, or speak in esperanto, I don't care, Georges will translate it.<br />
<br />
Please I really want to hear your thoughts, don't be shy, I mean there is nothing wrong, I don't know enough about this remember, I want the questions, I want answers. And I don't think we will all gonna get answers here. So if you have something, tell me.... Come on, you're french, you have an opinion on everything!<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' I'm sorry for my English which is very poor, I just have a question about, when you said that people which are ill can share about their illness and they try to share their illness, have you got some example of sharing medicines, how can it be possible with the pharmaceutical industry?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' You mean actually sharing actual medicines? Actual tablets?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Or advices, everything, you know...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' There are a lot of communities on the internet, very very simple searches will find, there is one called "Crohnology" (https://crohnology.com/) which is for a disease called Crohn's disease, there is a website called "PatientsLikeMe" (https://www.patientslikeme.com/), which actually allows you to find other people who may have same common illness, see what happens is, if I have an illness that's very difficult to treat, then I'm looking for answers. And maybe my doctor can't give me all the answers, so I look for other people with similar illness, right? And internet allows me now to meet people of similar interests, or similar goals right? So we can share information, so there are good things in here, it gives me solice, I mean it gives me like comfort knowing that somebody else has similar things and can maybe give me some words of wisdom or some advice.<br />
<br />
There is a danger also, and the danger is that we could be giving each other wrong advice, right? And this is where the medical profession is kind of ??, should people be out there be dispensing advice to each other, or giving each other, god forbid, give some medicines actually, without advice you know, "you have to drink hot water with something, because it works I swear it works!", right? And people do that, and you find that the correct thing is not being treated, so there is danger also in it.<br />
<br />
Some of these groups have actually become very active, and have become very effective, they're very good, I think. I don't know the answer, I am torn between this notion of people know what is best for them, and then every day I see stupid things, people doing stupid things and I wonder they don't know what is best for them, you know. I don't know the answer to that, I thing there has to be some balance.<br />
<br />
You heard of 23andMe (https://www.23andme.com)? It is a company in San Francisco and you give them 99 dollars and they will mail you a little kit and you rub some saliva on it, you mail it back to them and they will decode your DNA, and make it accessible to you over the Web. 99 bucks, what a deal! Sometimes they have a two-for-one, you and your friend, only for one price. The problem was, that they were initially claiming that "we will show you your DNA, and you can then find out problems about potentially diseases", so maybe you look at that on the you realize "Oh my god, I have something which makes me in 9O% likely to get breast cancer"<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' They assume, that you can read your DNA. I can that with my DNA, I will understand something.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, they claimed they'll make it easy to understand. But the problem was that that was like giving diagnostic advice, and it hasn't been like that, because there are rules about, because then it becomes a medical device that you're selling, and you're diagnosing something. So there is one thing to do something which is educational or entertainment or whatever, another thing saying it's medicine, because it's governed by certain laws. Well there is things people fell on both sides, some people say they want to know, do you have a right to know everything about yourself? I mean that's a big question, right?<br />
<br />
== 35'35 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Thank you for the talk. For me, there is something to do with Wikipedia structure, we need at least three levels of comprehension for everybody, for engineering specialists and for scientists which have a tool to understand very high level of the insides, not everybody has the education to understand, you have this responsibility to make all answers as we can the complexity understandable for everybody, and this is an obligation I think for openness to make as well as we can the complexity...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' On Wikipedia?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Wikipedia is a good example...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I've no argument to that, I think it's a very good goal to have, I don't know who's gonna have to do that, it's expensive to explain things, it takes a lot of time to... Simple things are hard, to make something simple is very, very hard, and a lot of people are getting paid a lot of money to make things simple, so I don't know who's gonna do it but I agree with you, I've no problem with that.<br />
<br />
== 37'45 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Come on... Nothing? I'm sorry I have more questions than answers, but this is a topic that...<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Do you know if the current review boards in the United States and France are actually considering this question and thinking about how to involve this kind of citizen science?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no. Well I don't know anything about France at all, but definitely in the US no. Citizen science is popular, but it's not still mainstream that has entered the realm of review boards. If a project is constructed in a way that is a conventional project, maybe I’m a scientist in the university, and I’m going to involve a lot of citizens in there, then I'll probably have to go to an institution review board, and it will judge my project, but not because it's citizen science necessarily, but more because it happens to be a scientific project that involves human beings. There are certainly not thinking about, as far as I know, about ongoing monitoring of projects and how the behaviour of citizens amongst themselves and on other citizens, how would that be impacted. As far as I know, no, and this is very new. And this notion, there is an increased conversation about this notion of social contract, that we have some responsibility, toward each other, and also the researcher has a responsibility toward the person being studied, and vice-versa, like for example if I go to a hospital, and I'm going to be treated for say, high blood pressure, hypertension or something, do I have an obligation to make my information available for the benefit of others? Because I am benefiting from the knowledge of others. So that conversation about social contracts has started but it's very, very much in the beginning. Nobody as far as I know knows anything about what such a contract would look like.<br />
<br />
== 40'30 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' J'essaie en anglais ou quelqu'un peut traduire ? En fait, c'est une question, peut-être, qui fâche. De quoi vous vivez ? Qui vous paie ? et est-ce que c'est le gouvernement américain is helping association like Creative Commons, and who pays you to do this? Because from my eyes you're the incarnation of general interest and as a French citizen I’m asking myself which organization, and I hope you will answer me American government is paying you?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' No, sure? <br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' American government is not paying me.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' Or federal government? Californian, you're from San Francisco...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK, I used to work at Creative Commons, I don't work at Creative Commons now, so not only is Creative Commons not paying me, not only is American government not paying, actually no one is paying me because I'm jobless, I'm actually looking for a job. I'm jobless and homeless.<br />
<br />
So the second question I think you eluded that American government was paying Creative Commons, no American government is not paying Creative Commons. Creative Commons is a non profit organization founded by foundations, philanthropic foundations, American government has no hand in anything. American government does fund science projects like any countries government fund science projects in that country, higher than such projects you know there are organizations like National Health, National science foundation, and they give grants to universities, and universities give them to scientists who their projects, so in the end I guess the money comes from American government, American government gets money from me, because I'm a tax payer, unless you are in Greece or somewhere, most people pay taxes. And when you pay taxes, that's what the government gets. I understand in France you pay a lot of taxes, right, and in return you get a lot of things. So that's really what happens. Did I answer your question?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK. Just to be clear, I don't work for anyone, I'm independent contractor working for myself. I’ve no boss, which is a very good thing.<br />
<br />
'''Georges:''' Still a few minutes left, so if somebody has another question?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Anything else? Ask me anything.<br />
<br />
== 43'49 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' So we're working for a software which is developed by people in Europe ?? and so on, on mailing list we had some discussions that are a bit too flamatory if I can say, so we have a big discussion about code of conduct, we hit difference of culture in states in Europe, the thing is, would you say that code of conduct is a law or not?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, certainly not.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Because many people reacted to , thinking, of course it is not an official law imposed, it was the community organising itself and, but for many people reacted, in particular people from Europe reacted to this, or a group of people, as a group is trying to impose a law, and if it's a code of conduct it’s a law, and if it's a law there should be distinctions, punishments if people...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, I would say it's not a law, it is something agreed upon by a group, let's say you invite me to your house for diner, you invite all of us to your house for diner tonight, and when we come in there you say that we have to take our shoes off before entering. And I decide to not take my shoes off, you can throw me out of your house. Is that a law? No. it's just a code of conduct you've established, right? ?? like that, no there could be cultural differences, maybe in my culture it is against my honour to take off my shoes. How dare you say I should take off my shoes? Well then it becomes a problem, right? So that's always there, so no I don't think code of conduct is law, and ?? it’s a really good thing because if you can come to a conclusion, then you manage to create something without involving law. And that's the thing we're trying to get at, because lawyers are expensive and confusion etcetera. In the end of course if a legal rule is broken, the law would come in, right? I mean if I come into your house and take off my shoes and come in and everything than I steal you're cutlery something like that, then I've broken law, I committed a crime and you can report me. It may not be worth it, if I've just stolen a fork, but I've broken a law. But I personally don't think code of conduct is law, I do understand the difficulty a code of conduct cross-cultural situation because definitely the major differences between America and Europe in terms of cultural expectations.<br />
<br />
== 46'55 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:'' So what do you think about strict chairman.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Strict chairman? Very, very important. <br />
Out of time! Thank you!</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es&diff=81358Ethique et l'intégrité collecte données2018-11-06T15:33:32Z<p>JennyB : /* 09'53 Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA ry Jenny B (+son) */ cette section va de 9 mn 55 à 13mn35 (total 47mn10)</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
<br />
'''Titre :''' Ethique et intégrité de la collecte et du partage des données - science citoyenne et autres projets d'Open Science<br />
<br />
'''Titre VO IETF=[en-US] :''' Ethics and Integrity of Data Collection and Sharing - citizen science and other open science projects<br />
<br />
'''Intervenant :''' Puneet Kishor <br />
<br />
'''Lieu :''' RMLL2015 - Beauvais<br />
<br />
'''Date :''' Juillet 2015<br />
<br />
'''Durée :''' 47'10"<br />
<br />
'''[http://videos-cdn.rmll.info/videos2015/ubicast/web/showroom/126-ethique-et-lintegrite-de-la-collecte_1f5a/v1253b456c154lcspb36_high.webm Lien]''' vers la '''la vidéo'''<br />
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==Transcription==<br />
<br />
<br />
==00' J'essaye, MO, cqfd93, CBA==<br />
Rencontres Mondiales du Logiciel Libre. Beauvais 2015<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Eh bien, nous allons commencer la conférence suivante et Corinne tu es avec nous, tout va bien. Je donne la parole. Ah, votre microphone est ici. Your microphone is there. I shall not translate.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' What's that?<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur:''' I shall not translate, because...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' That's OK, OK.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Ça va pour l’anglais tout le monde ?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I apologize, I am going to talk in English. but it will give you a chance to practice your English with me. My French is much worse than your English, you don't want me to be doing that anyway. This is going to be a very different presentation, I think, from most of the presentations you've been hearing. Most of them has been about software. This is about matter issues, bigger issues, not bigger, I don't mean more noble but bigger in terms of more complicated issues about ethics and integrity and what we can or cannot, or should or should not do.<br />
<br />
So hopefully you will find this of interest and I will want your reactions to that. It's very good that the conservation, if I understand correctly, ended with a little bit of talk about terms of services and licenses ???, is that right? I can have got that, you now, my French is not good and my Spanish is not good and I don't know any Portuguese but I could get that much little bit.<br />
<br />
I actually used to work for an organization called Creative Commons. How many people have heard of Creative Commons?<br />
<br />
I am surprised that there are few people who have not heard of Creative Commons. Creative Commons is the organization that makes copyright licenses, one of which is actually [NdT:now] used by Wikipedia for everything that is published on Wikipedia. And CC licenses as they are called are Creative Commons copyright licenses, I worked at Creative Commons for three years as the manager of Science and Data policy.<br />
<br />
So my focus is more on science and the application of licensing information to scientific data and scientific software. <br />
<br />
In this presentation I'm going to go in a slightly different but related direction.<br />
<br />
How many people here understand what is a license?<br />
<br />
No, no, it's easier than meaning of life. Can you tell me in very short what is a license?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Very good! A license is a permission. You can do something with my work or whatever that I have licensed. A license is a permission given in advance without knowing what you may do or not do. Think of a notice on a park, it says "You can come and sit here and enjoy the park", that's a license to enjoy the park. The person who's put the notice doesn't know who's going to enjoy the park, but it has been put there in the future for anyone to enjoy the park, that's a license.<br />
License is based upon some kind of underlying law. There is something that gives me the right to give you the permission, right? This is Pablo's computer, he gave me the permission to use his computer. If it was not his computer, he couldn't have given me per- well, he could have given me permission but wouldn't have meant anything, right? Because he doesn't have the right to give it to me. So in order for me to license something, I have to have the rights on it, that I can license.<br />
In the world of intellectual property, there is a right called Copyright Law. How many of you understand what is Copyright Law? Even generally.<br />
<br />
==05' Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Can you tell me what is copyright law, short?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Someone else: Can you tell me what is copyright law?<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Try it! No?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Copyright law is a law that gives me the first right in the benefits that I may get from things I create, OK? So if I write a poetry or if I write a song or make a film or make a Wikipedia page, I immediately get rights on it and I get the benefit or the first chance of benefiting from those. And then, based on that, I can give those rights to others and I do that using a license. If you go to any Wikipedia page or any page and if you go to the very bottom of it, terms of use, somewhere there will be written that "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply". The person who wrote this had rights, that person then gave away those rights using this license. This license was made by Creative Commons where I used to work. OK, so that's the connection. OK. Now, Let's come back to my talk.<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 01 sur 47 mn 10 copyright law licence : end of intro--><br />
<br />
So you all are now experts in copyright law and you all are now experts in licenses. But there are things which are not covered by copyright law and if they are not covered by copyright law, I don’t have rights in it that I can license away, and if I can't do that then how does the world work? And that is the subject of my talk. As you can see I've gone beyond the Creative Commons basically.<br />
<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 34 --><br />
=== Approving conventional science projects ===<br />
Conventional science projects, and I'm using the word "conventional" to mean the most common place science projects that happen in universities and higher research institutions, if they involve human subjects, they have to be approved. I don't know the situation in France, but I'm hundred percent sure it probably is the same as in the United States. There is some independent body that has to approve your project to ensure that you're going to treat your human subject with respect. In the United States, these bodies are called '''Institutional Review Boards''' (IRBs) <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 20 -->. When I want to make such a project <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 25 ??? il mange ses mots mais ca va --> and I want to study behavior or I want to study people and their behavior on anything, it could be a social sciences project, it could be a health project, it really doesn't matter. If humans are involved, I have to get the project approved, and the IRB which are independent bodies, they will review my project and they will ask me a lot of questions and they'll make it very difficult for me. In fact they will make sure that I'm doing everything correctly and that I am not going to do anything that will in any way harm or disrespect the humans that I'm studying. <!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 07 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going to be getting any data from humans, I will inform them, so if I am going to be studying you, I will inform you in advance as to what I'm getting from you and you will have the option to leave the study if you want. Understood? OK.<br />
So that's a very very basic step in all science project. IRBs are like the ethical watchguards. Typically, IRBs do their review in the beginning of a project, and they review the project and then they say "yes you can do it" or "no you can't do it" or "yes you can do it but you have to make these corrections etc, etc"<br />
OK? Yeah?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 54 --><br />
<br />
== 09'53 Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA(+son) et relu JennyB ==<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 55 sur 47 mn 10 relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
<br />
If I am going too fast, let me know, I mean I know when you people talk really fast in French I can't understand. I'm learning French, I understand if you speak slow, but I can understand the same thing with English.<br />
<br />
=== Citizen Science === <!-- Temps vidéo : 10 mn 21, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --> <br />
'''But what about … Citizen Science?''' Have you heard the term Citizen Science? Has anyone here heard the term Citizen Science? George you have… no? Nobody has heard the term Citizen Science besides George? George, can you tell me what is Citizen Science? You can tell in French.<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' C'est de la science faite par des non spécialistes, par des passionnés. By passionate people, not specialists.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, so there's several kinds of Citizen Science, typically Citizen Science involves, it does involve a specialist, say me, but then I employ, not employ as in payment, but I recruit a lot of common citizens who are not specialists to help me do the project.<br />
<br />
Have you heard of a product called "Galaxy Zoo"? Galaxy Zoo is a very famous Citizen Science project. Zooniverse is the platform on which Galaxy Zoo is based.<br />
<br />
There's a very famous project called the Cornell Birds Survey. Every year, Cornell University in the United States does this bird survey where citizens from all over the United States for a specified period go out and count birds. And it's been going on for more than a decade. It's a very rich project, yes.<br />
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'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I wouldn't call it Citizen Science although it does involve getting permission from the person whose computer on which you're running SETI@home, I wouldn't call it Citizen Science, I would just call it more like "distributed computing", you know, that's really what I'm doing here, OK. <br />
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'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah, exactly, and the work can be of different kinds or quality. So I can ask you all to feel a survey, or I can ask you all to complete some task for me, or I can ask you all to report me every time that your leaving, or something like that, right. I can employ your muscles, I can employ your eyes, or I can employ your brain to help me in analyze something, etc.<br />
<br />
So, Citizen Science is becoming very popular. It's becoming very, very popular because with the advent of the Internet and particularly with the advent of something like this [NdT:mobile phone shown], which is really a very powerful computer: I mean this is more powerful than a laptop that I add about five years ago. There's a lot of things I can do: it is a GPS, it's a camera, it is all kinds of sensors, that's a light sensor. I mean this is unbelievable, right? I mean, you know... And it's in my pocket. So this is... And everyone has one. So it's allowing people to do settling signs, distributed signs. Let have a quote, that says: "... is changing the relationship between science and society by fostering more collaborative, interdisciplinary research."<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 13 mn 35, relecture JennyB avec son et vidéo, nov 2018 --><br />
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== 13'36 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu CBA +son ==<br />
<br />
'''Three kinds of open projects.'''<br />
<br />
How do we approve, evaluate and monitor some citizen science projects, that's the theme of my presentation.<br />
<br />
There are three kinds of projects according to a paper that I found. <br />
<br />
Projects where citizens contribute some information, projects where they actually not just contribute some information, but they also help collaborate and help design or even analyze some information. Galaxy Zoo has a sort of that doc, you actually see some information and you tell whether it's a star or a nebula or... You know, you actually do something, you think about something and you make a judgment call.<br />
<br />
And then the various sort of the top end of Citizen Science projects would be where scientists and citizens get together and try and figure out what to study.<br />
<br />
There is actually another fourth kind of citizen science project that's happening a lot: self-organized. How many here have heard the term quantified-self? Can you tell me what's quantified-self?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, kind of. For example my phone has a motion sensor. Every time I walk it counts the number of steps I walked. And it basically allows me to keep track of how many steps I've walked and if I go here and click on a button, it'll tell me that today I've walked five thousand steps. Five thousands one hundred and five, which actually is not a lot, I should be walking twice as much more. It also tells me that I've climbed two floors, so I haven't done much climbing today.<br />
<br />
But quantified-self is, I mean it could be anything, it could be how much you walk, it could be taking your blood pressure on a daily basis, it could be measuring your heartbeat on a daily basis, and there are people, there is a very weird place in this world, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's called San Francisco, where people are obsessed with this kind of stuff, and there are constantly measuring everything about themselves. They've got like you know, they just get stuck everywhere and they are just measuring everything, which is why I run away from there and I came to Paris, where nobody seems to be obsessed by it at all. But, that's quantified-self.<br />
<br />
But people are taking this quantification further into analysis, and people are grouping their data together and trying to figure out what's wrong with them, trying to cure diseases, people who have certain kinds of diseases are building websites where they can collaborate and talk to each other and say "hey, you know, this is happening to me, is it happening to you also? I get headaches when I drink red wine, do you get headaches when you drink red wine also?". Things like that they are doing, right? These are sort of self-organized scientific projects that are happening.<br />
<br />
So then these projects are happening outside conventional academies, they are not happening at the universities, they are not happening at Université Marie Curie, they are not happening at Stanford University, they are just happening at, just people, meeting together and doing these things, right? Who monitors these projects?<br />
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== 17'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
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'''How do we approve non-conventional projects?'''<br />
<br />
So, the thing that I want to ask about is, and actually I'm going to ask you a lot of question, I'm not gonna provide any answers.<br />
The thing that I'm really asking about is: how do we approve non-conventional projects?<br />
<br />
If you decide to do a study on yourself, maybe you are taking samples out of your body, and measuring them or something. Is that ethical? Is it ethical to harm yourself? I mean the society says no. It is illegal to commit suicide. In many societies at least, in many societies. So the issue really becomes how do we evaluate and monitor projects that lie outside things that are governed by law?<br />
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Citizen science, sensors, self-measurement, participant led research, that's one of the big things that are very popular. As I mentioned people have certain diseases and they make a website where people of same disease can come together and share their experiences. You know, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease, different kinds of cancers, a lot of people want, they want somewhat comfort in a community, right? And they are sometimes giving each other advice and they are doing it outside the mechanism of medicine and health laws and the institutions.<br />
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So what is the substitute for IRBs in this question, that's something that I'm thinking about.<br />
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== 19'04 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
<br />
'''What about ongoing monitoring?'''<br />
And what about ongoing monitoring? Even if you approve such a project, even if there is, even if you set up a system where you can approve some kind of projects that's going on, how do you monitor it on an ongoing basis? Where people are doing things like they may be collecting data on others, what if I'm collecting data on you and misreport it? I tell something bad about you or I tell something good about myself that doesn't exist. You know, what if I recruit all of you to measure water samples from your village wells, and you find that it's not very good, and you decide not to report it, right? So these are the issues. Or you find that somebody else's well is not very good, and that person hasn't reported. Should you tell on that person, that person hasn't reported, you know, because then there's the issue of privacy that comes in.<br />
<br />
So invading privacy of others, if there's a citizen science project let's say, let's say I recruited all of you because I'm studying nesting habits of certain kinds of birds; And you all are bird lovers and I've recruited all of you, and you are supposed to go to the nests of the birds and take photographs and bring them back to me. Turns out that you're also a collector of eggs, and you steal the eggs, right? That's the issue so harming existing data or harming natural environment or culture property, these are the issues when there is no mechanism for ongoing monitoring that might exist in a more conventional academy.<br />
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== 20'49 transcrit par Cpm, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
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'''Legales tools are…'''<br />
So the reality is that legal tools that exist such as copyright law, etc, are inadequate,<br />
they either don't exist, and if they exist, they are inadequate, they are inappropriate, they are expensive, nobody likes lawyers, lawyers are expensive and they are confusing, and they really scare us.<br />
I mean you know, how many of you have ever been to a court? No one.<br />
And a lot of people will never go to a court in their normal lives.<br />
I mean a normal life, doesn't involve lawyers.<br />
And it doesn't involve courts and yet our life is ruled by laws.<br />
Right? So, it's an interesting thing that we have all these laws and yet laws don't really, you know, come in to play in our life on a daily basis.<br />
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== 21'41 transcrit par Cpm, relu son CBA ==<br />
Slide 14/10 '''Do no evil'''<br />
<br />
So, one solution could be do no evil. You eared that one, right?<br />
Do you know evil?<br />
That hasn't gone very well.<br />
There is a big company that has this, think all do no evil.<br />
And they have done even evil up there.<br />
So, maybe, the thing that I, I'm thinking quite a bit about, is about just mutual respect and social contract.<br />
So how many of you have eared the term social contract? "Contrat social", here we go, french, yeah, Rousseau, yeah.<br />
So this is notion that we give up something to get something. Right?<br />
We, individuals, when we become member of a society or a country, we give up some of our individual freedoms, in return for the safety and other things that the society provide.<br />
That's the social contract, right?<br />
I'll be a citizen of France and France will look after me, that kind of a thing. Somebody laugh.<br />
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'''Public:''' Yes because maybe too much.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah. But anyway, that's the notion of social contract.<br />
This notion that there is something that bind all of the groups together.<br />
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== 23'03 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Good behaviour by another name'''<br />
<br />
So, here are different names for good behavior. You know, a lot of conferences nowadays have this thing called "code of conduct". And of course social contract, doctors have this thing called Hippocratic oath, you know the little Rx, you know "I'll never harm anyone, bla bla bla etc", we have something called "honor code university", I don't know if you have that here? In the United States there's a honor code that you will not cheat, like we can get exams where you take the exam to your home, and you bring it back two or three days later but it's a honor code that you will not ask someone else, you know. Mutual respect…<br />
So what I'm saying is interestingly there are things they may not always work, but there are things out there which are not based in law. And they are designed to make communities work, OK? So can something like this be used or maybe a combination of these things be used?<br />
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== 24'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Importance of data integrity'''<br />
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One issue that becomes very important that I'm really interested in is the notion of data integrity. <br />
<br />
This thing [holding his phone] is telling me that I walked five thousand one hundred and five steps today. What if it's over-reporting? What if it's under-reporting? I don't know. Should I just believe it? We go to live believing a lot of things, not questioning them, right? Until we get some other evidence to the contrary.<br />
<br />
There is a lot of focus in this conference and in my life, I work at creative cons as I said, on open license, right? First of all I guarantee you ninety percent of the people don't know what an open license means when they say "open license". OK, fair enough. Like people don't know what organic means, but they shop organic food, right?<br />
<br />
Open is good, but is not a substitute for good science, 'cause in the end science is asking certain questions, and that is more important than anything. What would you rather? Open but crappy science, closed but good science? If you're a scientist you would probably choose good science, because a scientist is motivated by answering questions. By finding insights of something.<br />
<br />
So the question, and this is particularly useful not so much in software, but in hardware. Open hardware. What if the design is open but the data coming out of the hardware are bad? So let's say I make a hardware, I made some fantastic sensor, you know like the Star Wars tricorder it can measure everything, and I publish it under an open license, right? And you come in, you see that, you like it, you take it down, you're a great guy, we are not very honest. You take my open design and you make some changes to it, or you maybe cut some corners and make something which has license opened but now is not producing right data. And what if this thing was measuring something that was important for environmental health or public health, maybe reporting on air quality, maybe reporting on water quality? there could be serious consequences for public health.<br />
<br />
So the issue of data integrity is very important which has nothing to do with licensing, but it's very important for open science and the quality of science.<br />
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== 26'55 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Evaluating data integrity'''<br />
<br />
So, there is a study that I found where they found many ways in which you can actually evaluate data integrity. <br />
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By the way, all my ??? talk is on my website and, no software's required, just a browser, just click you know, it's a program I wrote and so it's available to anyone. So you can see all the links are there.<br />
<br />
So you can measure different... Think of these like vectors along which you can measure data integrity. Is the data accessible, believable, complete, consistent, relevant, secure, etc. There is many things you can measure, you can add more to this or subtract from this. They are dimensions that you can measure.<br />
<br />
Building can do as look a reputation, or think of it like social capital. This is very common on web communities, right? How many likes for example, or how many re-tweets, this is one example of some kind of trust and something. We have reputation scores in communities that are software, particularly software communities well you know, there is someone who's answered a lot of questions. Has people used Stackoverflow? Stackoverflow has the reputation, all has this reputation system basically, and as your reputation grows more you can do more things, etc.<br />
So that's sort like trust across social networks, and what I call co-calibration where you can take yourself and calibrate yourself against someone else, or take a piece of hardware and calibrate a against a non-truth, maybe a reference hardware. So, that's another way for evaluating data integrity.<br />
<br />
The bottom line is that there are mechanisms out there for making our lives run in a community fashion, without involving law. What are some of those mechanisms that can be taken together or combined into something that can be used to evaluate and monitor open science projects. And this is the thing that I actually find the most interesting right now and sort of my post-license world of work.<br />
<br />
== 29'37 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
That's all the talk I have. I think I have a lot of time left, right?<br />
So, I really want people to speak up and give their thoughts and, you know, that's not be a one-way thing. feel free to speak in English, I won't feel offended at all, or speak in esperanto, I don't care, Georges will translate it.<br />
<br />
Please I really want to hear your thoughts, don't be shy, I mean there is nothing wrong, I don't know enough about this remember, I want the questions, I want answers. And I don't think we will all gonna get answers here. So if you have something, tell me.... Come on, you're french, you have an opinion on everything!<br />
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'''Public:''' I'm sorry for my English which is very poor, I just have a question about, when you said that people which are ill can share about their illness and they try to share their illness, have you got some example of sharing medicines, how can it be possible with the pharmaceutical industry?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' You mean actually sharing actual medicines? Actual tablets?<br />
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'''Public:''' Or advices, everything, you know...<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' There are a lot of communities on the internet, very very simple searches will find, there is one called "Crohnology" (https://crohnology.com/) which is for a disease called Crohn's disease, there is a website called "PatientsLikeMe" (https://www.patientslikeme.com/), which actually allows you to find other people who may have same common illness, see what happens is, if I have an illness that's very difficult to treat, then I'm looking for answers. And maybe my doctor can't give me all the answers, so I look for other people with similar illness, right? And internet allows me now to meet people of similar interests, or similar goals right? So we can share information, so there are good things in here, it gives me solice, I mean it gives me like comfort knowing that somebody else has similar things and can maybe give me some words of wisdom or some advice.<br />
<br />
There is a danger also, and the danger is that we could be giving each other wrong advice, right? And this is where the medical profession is kind of ??, should people be out there be dispensing advice to each other, or giving each other, god forbid, give some medicines actually, without advice you know, "you have to drink hot water with something, because it works I swear it works!", right? And people do that, and you find that the correct thing is not being treated, so there is danger also in it.<br />
<br />
Some of these groups have actually become very active, and have become very effective, they're very good, I think. I don't know the answer, I am torn between this notion of people know what is best for them, and then every day I see stupid things, people doing stupid things and I wonder they don't know what is best for them, you know. I don't know the answer to that, I thing there has to be some balance.<br />
<br />
You heard of 23andMe (https://www.23andme.com)? It is a company in San Francisco and you give them 99 dollars and they will mail you a little kit and you rub some saliva on it, you mail it back to them and they will decode your DNA, and make it accessible to you over the Web. 99 bucks, what a deal! Sometimes they have a two-for-one, you and your friend, only for one price. The problem was, that they were initially claiming that "we will show you your DNA, and you can then find out problems about potentially diseases", so maybe you look at that on the you realize "Oh my god, I have something which makes me in 9O% likely to get breast cancer"<br />
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'''Public:''' They assume, that you can read your DNA. I can that with my DNA, I will understand something.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, they claimed they'll make it easy to understand. But the problem was that that was like giving diagnostic advice, and it hasn't been like that, because there are rules about, because then it becomes a medical device that you're selling, and you're diagnosing something. So there is one thing to do something which is educational or entertainment or whatever, another thing saying it's medicine, because it's governed by certain laws. Well there is things people fell on both sides, some people say they want to know, do you have a right to know everything about yourself? I mean that's a big question, right?<br />
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== 35'35 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
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'''Public:''' Thank you for the talk. For me, there is something to do with Wikipedia structure, we need at least three levels of comprehension for everybody, for engineering specialists and for scientists which have a tool to understand very high level of the insides, not everybody has the education to understand, you have this responsibility to make all answers as we can the complexity understandable for everybody, and this is an obligation I think for openness to make as well as we can the complexity...<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' On Wikipedia?<br />
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'''Public:''' Wikipedia is a good example...<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' I've no argument to that, I think it's a very good goal to have, I don't know who's gonna have to do that, it's expensive to explain things, it takes a lot of time to... Simple things are hard, to make something simple is very, very hard, and a lot of people are getting paid a lot of money to make things simple, so I don't know who's gonna do it but I agree with you, I've no problem with that.<br />
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== 37'45 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Come on... Nothing? I'm sorry I have more questions than answers, but this is a topic that...<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Do you know if the current review boards in the United States and France are actually considering this question and thinking about how to involve this kind of citizen science?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no. Well I don't know anything about France at all, but definitely in the US no. Citizen science is popular, but it's not still mainstream that has entered the realm of review boards. If a project is constructed in a way that is a conventional project, maybe I’m a scientist in the university, and I’m going to involve a lot of citizens in there, then I'll probably have to go to an institution review board, and it will judge my project, but not because it's citizen science necessarily, but more because it happens to be a scientific project that involves human beings. There are certainly not thinking about, as far as I know, about ongoing monitoring of projects and how the behaviour of citizens amongst themselves and on other citizens, how would that be impacted. As far as I know, no, and this is very new. And this notion, there is an increased conversation about this notion of social contract, that we have some responsibility, toward each other, and also the researcher has a responsibility toward the person being studied, and vice-versa, like for example if I go to a hospital, and I'm going to be treated for say, high blood pressure, hypertension or something, do I have an obligation to make my information available for the benefit of others? Because I am benefiting from the knowledge of others. So that conversation about social contracts has started but it's very, very much in the beginning. Nobody as far as I know knows anything about what such a contract would look like.<br />
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== 40'30 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
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'''Public :''' J'essaie en anglais ou quelqu'un peut traduire ? En fait, c'est une question, peut-être, qui fâche. De quoi vous vivez ? Qui vous paie ? et est-ce que c'est le gouvernement américain is helping association like Creative Commons, and who pays you to do this? Because from my eyes you're the incarnation of general interest and as a French citizen I’m asking myself which organization, and I hope you will answer me American government is paying you?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no<br />
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'''Public :''' No, sure? <br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' American government is not paying me.<br />
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'''Public :''' Or federal government? Californian, you're from San Francisco...<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK, I used to work at Creative Commons, I don't work at Creative Commons now, so not only is Creative Commons not paying me, not only is American government not paying, actually no one is paying me because I'm jobless, I'm actually looking for a job. I'm jobless and homeless.<br />
<br />
So the second question I think you eluded that American government was paying Creative Commons, no American government is not paying Creative Commons. Creative Commons is a non profit organization founded by foundations, philanthropic foundations, American government has no hand in anything. American government does fund science projects like any countries government fund science projects in that country, higher than such projects you know there are organizations like National Health, National science foundation, and they give grants to universities, and universities give them to scientists who their projects, so in the end I guess the money comes from American government, American government gets money from me, because I'm a tax payer, unless you are in Greece or somewhere, most people pay taxes. And when you pay taxes, that's what the government gets. I understand in France you pay a lot of taxes, right, and in return you get a lot of things. So that's really what happens. Did I answer your question?<br />
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'''Public:''' Yes.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK. Just to be clear, I don't work for anyone, I'm independent contractor working for myself. I’ve no boss, which is a very good thing.<br />
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'''Georges:''' Still a few minutes left, so if somebody has another question?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Anything else? Ask me anything.<br />
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== 43'49 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
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'''Public:''' So we're working for a software which is developed by people in Europe ?? and so on, on mailing list we had some discussions that are a bit too flamatory if I can say, so we have a big discussion about code of conduct, we hit difference of culture in states in Europe, the thing is, would you say that code of conduct is a law or not?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, certainly not.<br />
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'''Public:''' Because many people reacted to , thinking, of course it is not an official law imposed, it was the community organising itself and, but for many people reacted, in particular people from Europe reacted to this, or a group of people, as a group is trying to impose a law, and if it's a code of conduct it’s a law, and if it's a law there should be distinctions, punishments if people...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, I would say it's not a law, it is something agreed upon by a group, let's say you invite me to your house for diner, you invite all of us to your house for diner tonight, and when we come in there you say that we have to take our shoes off before entering. And I decide to not take my shoes off, you can throw me out of your house. Is that a law? No. it's just a code of conduct you've established, right? ?? like that, no there could be cultural differences, maybe in my culture it is against my honour to take off my shoes. How dare you say I should take off my shoes? Well then it becomes a problem, right? So that's always there, so no I don't think code of conduct is law, and ?? it’s a really good thing because if you can come to a conclusion, then you manage to create something without involving law. And that's the thing we're trying to get at, because lawyers are expensive and confusion etcetera. In the end of course if a legal rule is broken, the law would come in, right? I mean if I come into your house and take off my shoes and come in and everything than I steal you're cutlery something like that, then I've broken law, I committed a crime and you can report me. It may not be worth it, if I've just stolen a fork, but I've broken a law. But I personally don't think code of conduct is law, I do understand the difficulty a code of conduct cross-cultural situation because definitely the major differences between America and Europe in terms of cultural expectations.<br />
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== 46'55 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
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'''Public:'' So what do you think about strict chairman.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Strict chairman? Very, very important. <br />
Out of time! Thank you!</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Discussion:Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es&diff=81357Discussion:Ethique et l'intégrité collecte données2018-11-06T15:21:35Z<p>JennyB : Page créée avec « relecture avec son et vidéo : en cours ~~~~ »</p>
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<div>relecture avec son et vidéo : en cours [[Utilisateur:JennyB|JennyB]] ([[Discussion utilisateur:JennyB|discussion]]) 6 novembre 2018 à 16:21 (CET)</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es&diff=81356Ethique et l'intégrité collecte données2018-11-06T15:20:29Z<p>JennyB : /* 05' Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB */ du début à 9 mn 54 : ok</p>
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<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
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'''Titre :''' Ethique et intégrité de la collecte et du partage des données - science citoyenne et autres projets d'Open Science<br />
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'''Titre VO IETF=[en-US] :''' Ethics and Integrity of Data Collection and Sharing - citizen science and other open science projects<br />
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'''Intervenant :''' Puneet Kishor <br />
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'''Lieu :''' RMLL2015 - Beauvais<br />
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'''Date :''' Juillet 2015<br />
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'''Durée :''' 47'10"<br />
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'''[http://videos-cdn.rmll.info/videos2015/ubicast/web/showroom/126-ethique-et-lintegrite-de-la-collecte_1f5a/v1253b456c154lcspb36_high.webm Lien]''' vers la '''la vidéo'''<br />
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==Transcription==<br />
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==00' J'essaye, MO, cqfd93, CBA==<br />
Rencontres Mondiales du Logiciel Libre. Beauvais 2015<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Eh bien, nous allons commencer la conférence suivante et Corinne tu es avec nous, tout va bien. Je donne la parole. Ah, votre microphone est ici. Your microphone is there. I shall not translate.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' What's that?<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur:''' I shall not translate, because...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' That's OK, OK.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Présentateur :''' Ça va pour l’anglais tout le monde ?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' I apologize, I am going to talk in English. but it will give you a chance to practice your English with me. My French is much worse than your English, you don't want me to be doing that anyway. This is going to be a very different presentation, I think, from most of the presentations you've been hearing. Most of them has been about software. This is about matter issues, bigger issues, not bigger, I don't mean more noble but bigger in terms of more complicated issues about ethics and integrity and what we can or cannot, or should or should not do.<br />
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So hopefully you will find this of interest and I will want your reactions to that. It's very good that the conservation, if I understand correctly, ended with a little bit of talk about terms of services and licenses ???, is that right? I can have got that, you now, my French is not good and my Spanish is not good and I don't know any Portuguese but I could get that much little bit.<br />
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I actually used to work for an organization called Creative Commons. How many people have heard of Creative Commons?<br />
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I am surprised that there are few people who have not heard of Creative Commons. Creative Commons is the organization that makes copyright licenses, one of which is actually [NdT:now] used by Wikipedia for everything that is published on Wikipedia. And CC licenses as they are called are Creative Commons copyright licenses, I worked at Creative Commons for three years as the manager of Science and Data policy.<br />
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So my focus is more on science and the application of licensing information to scientific data and scientific software. <br />
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In this presentation I'm going to go in a slightly different but related direction.<br />
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How many people here understand what is a license?<br />
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No, no, it's easier than meaning of life. Can you tell me in very short what is a license?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Very good! A license is a permission. You can do something with my work or whatever that I have licensed. A license is a permission given in advance without knowing what you may do or not do. Think of a notice on a park, it says "You can come and sit here and enjoy the park", that's a license to enjoy the park. The person who's put the notice doesn't know who's going to enjoy the park, but it has been put there in the future for anyone to enjoy the park, that's a license.<br />
License is based upon some kind of underlying law. There is something that gives me the right to give you the permission, right? This is Pablo's computer, he gave me the permission to use his computer. If it was not his computer, he couldn't have given me per- well, he could have given me permission but wouldn't have meant anything, right? Because he doesn't have the right to give it to me. So in order for me to license something, I have to have the rights on it, that I can license.<br />
In the world of intellectual property, there is a right called Copyright Law. How many of you understand what is Copyright Law? Even generally.<br />
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==05' Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA et JennyB==<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Can you tell me what is copyright law, short?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Someone else: Can you tell me what is copyright law?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Try it! No?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Copyright law is a law that gives me the first right in the benefits that I may get from things I create, OK? So if I write a poetry or if I write a song or make a film or make a Wikipedia page, I immediately get rights on it and I get the benefit or the first chance of benefiting from those. And then, based on that, I can give those rights to others and I do that using a license. If you go to any Wikipedia page or any page and if you go to the very bottom of it, terms of use, somewhere there will be written that "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply". The person who wrote this had rights, that person then gave away those rights using this license. This license was made by Creative Commons where I used to work. OK, so that's the connection. OK. Now, Let's come back to my talk.<br />
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<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 01 sur 47 mn 10 copyright law licence : end of intro--><br />
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So you all are now experts in copyright law and you all are now experts in licenses. But there are things which are not covered by copyright law and if they are not covered by copyright law, I don’t have rights in it that I can license away, and if I can't do that then how does the world work? And that is the subject of my talk. As you can see I've gone beyond the Creative Commons basically.<br />
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<!-- Temps vidéo : 7 mn 34 --><br />
=== Approving conventional science projects ===<br />
Conventional science projects, and I'm using the word "conventional" to mean the most common place science projects that happen in universities and higher research institutions, if they involve human subjects, they have to be approved. I don't know the situation in France, but I'm hundred percent sure it probably is the same as in the United States. There is some independent body that has to approve your project to ensure that you're going to treat your human subject with respect. In the United States, these bodies are called '''Institutional Review Boards''' (IRBs) <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 20 -->. When I want to make such a project <!-- Temps vidéo : 8 mn 25 ??? il mange ses mots mais ca va --> and I want to study behavior or I want to study people and their behavior on anything, it could be a social sciences project, it could be a health project, it really doesn't matter. If humans are involved, I have to get the project approved, and the IRB which are independent bodies, they will review my project and they will ask me a lot of questions and they'll make it very difficult for me. In fact they will make sure that I'm doing everything correctly and that I am not going to do anything that will in any way harm or disrespect the humans that I'm studying. <!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 07 --> <br />
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If I am going to be getting any data from humans, I will inform them, so if I am going to be studying you, I will inform you in advance as to what I'm getting from you and you will have the option to leave the study if you want. Understood? OK.<br />
So that's a very very basic step in all science project. IRBs are like the ethical watchguards. Typically, IRBs do their review in the beginning of a project, and they review the project and then they say "yes you can do it" or "no you can't do it" or "yes you can do it but you have to make these corrections etc, etc"<br />
OK? Yeah?<br />
<!-- Temps vidéo : 9 mn 54 --><br />
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== 09'53 Transcription cqfd93, relu CBA(+son) ==<br />
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If I am going too fast, let me know, I mean I know when you people talk really fast in French I can't understand. I'm learning French, I understand if you speak slow, but I can understand the same thing with English.<br />
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'''But what about … Citizen Science?''' Have you heard the term Citizen Science? Has anyone here heard the term Citizen Science? George you have… no? Nobody has heard the term Citizen Science besides George? George, can you tell me what is Citizen Science? You can tell in French.<br />
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'''Public :''' C'est de la science faite par des non spécialistes, par des passionnés. By passionate people, not specialists.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, so there's several kinds of Citizen Science, typically Citizen Science involves, it does involve a specialist, say me, but then I employ, not employ as in payment, but I recruit a lot of common citizens who are not specialists to help me do the project.<br />
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Have you heard of a product called "Galaxy Zoo"? Galaxy Zoo is a very famous Citizen Science project. Zooniverse is the platform on which Galaxy Zoo is based.<br />
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There's a very famous project called the Cornell Birds Survey. Every year, Cornell University in the United States does this bird survey where citizens from all over the United States for a specified period go out and count birds. And it's been going on for more than a decade. It's a very rich project, yes.<br />
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'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' I wouldn't call it Citizen Science although it does involve getting permission from the person whose computer on which you're running SETI@home, I wouldn't call it Citizen Science, I would just call it more like "distributed computing", you know, that's really what I'm doing here, OK. <br />
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'''Public :''' Inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah, exactly, and the work can be of different kinds or quality. So I can ask you all to feel a survey, or I can ask you all to complete some task for me, or I can ask you all to report me every time that your leaving, or something like that, right. I can employ your muscles, I can employ your eyes, or I can employ your brain to help me analyze something, etc.<br />
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So, Citizen Science is becoming very popular. It's becoming very, very popular because with the advent of the Internet and particularly with the advent of something like this [NdT:mobile phone shown], which is really a very powerful computer: I mean this is more powerful than a laptop that I add about five years ago. There's a lot of things I can do: it is a GPS, it's a camera, it is all kinds of sensors, that's a light sensor. I mean this is unbelievable, right? I mean, you know... And it's in my pocket. So this is... And everyone has one. So it's allowing people to do settling signs, distributed signs. Let have a quote, that says: "... is changing the relationship between science and society by fostering more collaborative, interdisciplinary research."<br />
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== 13'36 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu CBA +son ==<br />
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'''Three kinds of open projects.'''<br />
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How do we approve, evaluate and monitor some citizen science projects, that's the theme of my presentation.<br />
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There are three kinds of projects according to a paper that I found. <br />
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Projects where citizens contribute some information, projects where they actually not just contribute some information, but they also help collaborate and help design or even analyze some information. Galaxy Zoo has a sort of that doc, you actually see some information and you tell whether it's a star or a nebula or... You know, you actually do something, you think about something and you make a judgment call.<br />
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And then the various sort of the top end of Citizen Science projects would be where scientists and citizens get together and try and figure out what to study.<br />
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There is actually another fourth kind of citizen science project that's happening a lot: self-organized. How many here have heard the term quantified-self? Can you tell me what's quantified-self?<br />
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'''Public :''' inaudible<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, kind of. For example my phone has a motion sensor. Every time I walk it counts the number of steps I walked. And it basically allows me to keep track of how many steps I've walked and if I go here and click on a button, it'll tell me that today I've walked five thousand steps. Five thousands one hundred and five, which actually is not a lot, I should be walking twice as much more. It also tells me that I've climbed two floors, so I haven't done much climbing today.<br />
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But quantified-self is, I mean it could be anything, it could be how much you walk, it could be taking your blood pressure on a daily basis, it could be measuring your heartbeat on a daily basis, and there are people, there is a very weird place in this world, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's called San Francisco, where people are obsessed with this kind of stuff, and there are constantly measuring everything about themselves. They've got like you know, they just get stuck everywhere and they are just measuring everything, which is why I run away from there and I came to Paris, where nobody seems to be obsessed by it at all. But, that's quantified-self.<br />
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But people are taking this quantification further into analysis, and people are grouping their data together and trying to figure out what's wrong with them, trying to cure diseases, people who have certain kinds of diseases are building websites where they can collaborate and talk to each other and say "hey, you know, this is happening to me, is it happening to you also? I get headaches when I drink red wine, do you get headaches when you drink red wine also?". Things like that they are doing, right? These are sort of self-organized scientific projects that are happening.<br />
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So then these projects are happening outside conventional academies, they are not happening at the universities, they are not happening at Université Marie Curie, they are not happening at Stanford University, they are just happening at, just people, meeting together and doing these things, right? Who monitors these projects?<br />
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== 17'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
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'''How do we approve non-conventional projects?'''<br />
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So, the thing that I want to ask about is, and actually I'm going to ask you a lot of question, I'm not gonna provide any answers.<br />
The thing that I'm really asking about is: how do we approve non-conventional projects?<br />
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If you decide to do a study on yourself, maybe you are taking samples out of your body, and measuring them or something. Is that ethical? Is it ethical to harm yourself? I mean the society says no. It is illegal to commit suicide. In many societies at least, in many societies. So the issue really becomes how do we evaluate and monitor projects that lie outside things that are governed by law?<br />
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Citizen science, sensors, self-measurement, participant led research, that's one of the big things that are very popular. As I mentioned people have certain diseases and they make a website where people of same disease can come together and share their experiences. You know, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease, different kinds of cancers, a lot of people want, they want somewhat comfort in a community, right? And they are sometimes giving each other advice and they are doing it outside the mechanism of medicine and health laws and the institutions.<br />
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So what is the substitute for IRBs in this question, that's something that I'm thinking about.<br />
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== 19'04 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
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'''What about ongoing monitoring?'''<br />
And what about ongoing monitoring? Even if you approve such a project, even if there is, even if you set up a system where you can approve some kind of projects that's going on, how do you monitor it on an ongoing basis? Where people are doing things like they may be collecting data on others, what if I'm collecting data on you and misreport it? I tell something bad about you or I tell something good about myself that doesn't exist. You know, what if I recruit all of you to measure water samples from your village wells, and you find that it's not very good, and you decide not to report it, right? So these are the issues. Or you find that somebody else's well is not very good, and that person hasn't reported. Should you tell on that person, that person hasn't reported, you know, because then there's the issue of privacy that comes in.<br />
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So invading privacy of others, if there's a citizen science project let's say, let's say I recruited all of you because I'm studying nesting habits of certain kinds of birds; And you all are bird lovers and I've recruited all of you, and you are supposed to go to the nests of the birds and take photographs and bring them back to me. Turns out that you're also a collector of eggs, and you steal the eggs, right? That's the issue so harming existing data or harming natural environment or culture property, these are the issues when there is no mechanism for ongoing monitoring that might exist in a more conventional academy.<br />
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== 20'49 transcrit par Cpm, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
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'''Legales tools are…'''<br />
So the reality is that legal tools that exist such as copyright law, etc, are inadequate,<br />
they either don't exist, and if they exist, they are inadequate, they are inappropriate, they are expensive, nobody likes lawyers, lawyers are expensive and they are confusing, and they really scare us.<br />
I mean you know, how many of you have ever been to a court? No one.<br />
And a lot of people will never go to a court in their normal lives.<br />
I mean a normal life, doesn't involve lawyers.<br />
And it doesn't involve courts and yet our life is ruled by laws.<br />
Right? So, it's an interesting thing that we have all these laws and yet laws don't really, you know, come in to play in our life on a daily basis.<br />
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== 21'41 transcrit par Cpm, relu son CBA ==<br />
Slide 14/10 '''Do no evil'''<br />
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So, one solution could be do no evil. You eared that one, right?<br />
Do you know evil?<br />
That hasn't gone very well.<br />
There is a big company that has this, think all do no evil.<br />
And they have done even evil up there.<br />
So, maybe, the thing that I, I'm thinking quite a bit about, is about just mutual respect and social contract.<br />
So how many of you have eared the term social contract? "Contrat social", here we go, french, yeah, Rousseau, yeah.<br />
So this is notion that we give up something to get something. Right?<br />
We, individuals, when we become member of a society or a country, we give up some of our individual freedoms, in return for the safety and other things that the society provide.<br />
That's the social contract, right?<br />
I'll be a citizen of France and France will look after me, that kind of a thing. Somebody laugh.<br />
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'''Public:''' Yes because maybe too much.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Yeah. But anyway, that's the notion of social contract.<br />
This notion that there is something that bind all of the groups together.<br />
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== 23'03 - transcrit Juu, relu son cqfd93, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Good behaviour by another name'''<br />
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So, here are different names for good behavior. You know, a lot of conferences nowadays have this thing called "code of conduct". And of course social contract, doctors have this thing called Hippocratic oath, you know the little Rx, you know "I'll never harm anyone, bla bla bla etc", we have something called "honor code university", I don't know if you have that here? In the United States there's a honor code that you will not cheat, like we can get exams where you take the exam to your home, and you bring it back two or three days later but it's a honor code that you will not ask someone else, you know. Mutual respect…<br />
So what I'm saying is interestingly there are things they may not always work, but there are things out there which are not based in law. And they are designed to make communities work, OK? So can something like this be used or maybe a combination of these things be used?<br />
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== 24'16 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Importance of data integrity'''<br />
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One issue that becomes very important that I'm really interested in is the notion of data integrity. <br />
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This thing [holding his phone] is telling me that I walked five thousand one hundred and five steps today. What if it's over-reporting? What if it's under-reporting? I don't know. Should I just believe it? We go to live believing a lot of things, not questioning them, right? Until we get some other evidence to the contrary.<br />
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There is a lot of focus in this conference and in my life, I work at creative cons as I said, on open license, right? First of all I guarantee you ninety percent of the people don't know what an open license means when they say "open license". OK, fair enough. Like people don't know what organic means, but they shop organic food, right?<br />
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Open is good, but is not a substitute for good science, 'cause in the end science is asking certain questions, and that is more important than anything. What would you rather? Open but crappy science, closed but good science? If you're a scientist you would probably choose good science, because a scientist is motivated by answering questions. By finding insights of something.<br />
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So the question, and this is particularly useful not so much in software, but in hardware. Open hardware. What if the design is open but the data coming out of the hardware are bad? So let's say I make a hardware, I made some fantastic sensor, you know like the Star Wars tricorder it can measure everything, and I publish it under an open license, right? And you come in, you see that, you like it, you take it down, you're a great guy, we are not very honest. You take my open design and you make some changes to it, or you maybe cut some corners and make something which has license opened but now is not producing right data. And what if this thing was measuring something that was important for environmental health or public health, maybe reporting on air quality, maybe reporting on water quality? there could be serious consequences for public health.<br />
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So the issue of data integrity is very important which has nothing to do with licensing, but it's very important for open science and the quality of science.<br />
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== 26'55 - transcrit Juu, relu son CBA ==<br />
'''Evaluating data integrity'''<br />
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So, there is a study that I found where they found many ways in which you can actually evaluate data integrity. <br />
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By the way, all my ??? talk is on my website and, no software's required, just a browser, just click you know, it's a program I wrote and so it's available to anyone. So you can see all the links are there.<br />
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So you can measure different... Think of these like vectors along which you can measure data integrity. Is the data accessible, believable, complete, consistent, relevant, secure, etc. There is many things you can measure, you can add more to this or subtract from this. They are dimensions that you can measure.<br />
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Building can do as look a reputation, or think of it like social capital. This is very common on web communities, right? How many likes for example, or how many re-tweets, this is one example of some kind of trust and something. We have reputation scores in communities that are software, particularly software communities well you know, there is someone who's answered a lot of questions. Has people used Stackoverflow? Stackoverflow has the reputation, all has this reputation system basically, and as your reputation grows more you can do more things, etc.<br />
So that's sort like trust across social networks, and what I call co-calibration where you can take yourself and calibrate yourself against someone else, or take a piece of hardware and calibrate a against a non-truth, maybe a reference hardware. So, that's another way for evaluating data integrity.<br />
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The bottom line is that there are mechanisms out there for making our lives run in a community fashion, without involving law. What are some of those mechanisms that can be taken together or combined into something that can be used to evaluate and monitor open science projects. And this is the thing that I actually find the most interesting right now and sort of my post-license world of work.<br />
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== 29'37 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
That's all the talk I have. I think I have a lot of time left, right?<br />
So, I really want people to speak up and give their thoughts and, you know, that's not be a one-way thing. feel free to speak in English, I won't feel offended at all, or speak in esperanto, I don't care, Georges will translate it.<br />
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Please I really want to hear your thoughts, don't be shy, I mean there is nothing wrong, I don't know enough about this remember, I want the questions, I want answers. And I don't think we will all gonna get answers here. So if you have something, tell me.... Come on, you're french, you have an opinion on everything!<br />
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'''Public:''' I'm sorry for my English which is very poor, I just have a question about, when you said that people which are ill can share about their illness and they try to share their illness, have you got some example of sharing medicines, how can it be possible with the pharmaceutical industry?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' You mean actually sharing actual medicines? Actual tablets?<br />
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'''Public:''' Or advices, everything, you know...<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' There are a lot of communities on the internet, very very simple searches will find, there is one called "Crohnology" (https://crohnology.com/) which is for a disease called Crohn's disease, there is a website called "PatientsLikeMe" (https://www.patientslikeme.com/), which actually allows you to find other people who may have same common illness, see what happens is, if I have an illness that's very difficult to treat, then I'm looking for answers. And maybe my doctor can't give me all the answers, so I look for other people with similar illness, right? And internet allows me now to meet people of similar interests, or similar goals right? So we can share information, so there are good things in here, it gives me solice, I mean it gives me like comfort knowing that somebody else has similar things and can maybe give me some words of wisdom or some advice.<br />
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There is a danger also, and the danger is that we could be giving each other wrong advice, right? And this is where the medical profession is kind of ??, should people be out there be dispensing advice to each other, or giving each other, god forbid, give some medicines actually, without advice you know, "you have to drink hot water with something, because it works I swear it works!", right? And people do that, and you find that the correct thing is not being treated, so there is danger also in it.<br />
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Some of these groups have actually become very active, and have become very effective, they're very good, I think. I don't know the answer, I am torn between this notion of people know what is best for them, and then every day I see stupid things, people doing stupid things and I wonder they don't know what is best for them, you know. I don't know the answer to that, I thing there has to be some balance.<br />
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You heard of 23andMe (https://www.23andme.com)? It is a company in San Francisco and you give them 99 dollars and they will mail you a little kit and you rub some saliva on it, you mail it back to them and they will decode your DNA, and make it accessible to you over the Web. 99 bucks, what a deal! Sometimes they have a two-for-one, you and your friend, only for one price. The problem was, that they were initially claiming that "we will show you your DNA, and you can then find out problems about potentially diseases", so maybe you look at that on the you realize "Oh my god, I have something which makes me in 9O% likely to get breast cancer"<br />
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'''Public:''' They assume, that you can read your DNA. I can that with my DNA, I will understand something.<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Well, they claimed they'll make it easy to understand. But the problem was that that was like giving diagnostic advice, and it hasn't been like that, because there are rules about, because then it becomes a medical device that you're selling, and you're diagnosing something. So there is one thing to do something which is educational or entertainment or whatever, another thing saying it's medicine, because it's governed by certain laws. Well there is things people fell on both sides, some people say they want to know, do you have a right to know everything about yourself? I mean that's a big question, right?<br />
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== 35'35 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
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'''Public:''' Thank you for the talk. For me, there is something to do with Wikipedia structure, we need at least three levels of comprehension for everybody, for engineering specialists and for scientists which have a tool to understand very high level of the insides, not everybody has the education to understand, you have this responsibility to make all answers as we can the complexity understandable for everybody, and this is an obligation I think for openness to make as well as we can the complexity...<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' On Wikipedia?<br />
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'''Public:''' Wikipedia is a good example...<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' I've no argument to that, I think it's a very good goal to have, I don't know who's gonna have to do that, it's expensive to explain things, it takes a lot of time to... Simple things are hard, to make something simple is very, very hard, and a lot of people are getting paid a lot of money to make things simple, so I don't know who's gonna do it but I agree with you, I've no problem with that.<br />
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== 37'45 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' Come on... Nothing? I'm sorry I have more questions than answers, but this is a topic that...<br />
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'''Public:''' Do you know if the current review boards in the United States and France are actually considering this question and thinking about how to involve this kind of citizen science?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no. Well I don't know anything about France at all, but definitely in the US no. Citizen science is popular, but it's not still mainstream that has entered the realm of review boards. If a project is constructed in a way that is a conventional project, maybe I’m a scientist in the university, and I’m going to involve a lot of citizens in there, then I'll probably have to go to an institution review board, and it will judge my project, but not because it's citizen science necessarily, but more because it happens to be a scientific project that involves human beings. There are certainly not thinking about, as far as I know, about ongoing monitoring of projects and how the behaviour of citizens amongst themselves and on other citizens, how would that be impacted. As far as I know, no, and this is very new. And this notion, there is an increased conversation about this notion of social contract, that we have some responsibility, toward each other, and also the researcher has a responsibility toward the person being studied, and vice-versa, like for example if I go to a hospital, and I'm going to be treated for say, high blood pressure, hypertension or something, do I have an obligation to make my information available for the benefit of others? Because I am benefiting from the knowledge of others. So that conversation about social contracts has started but it's very, very much in the beginning. Nobody as far as I know knows anything about what such a contract would look like.<br />
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== 40'30 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
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'''Public :''' J'essaie en anglais ou quelqu'un peut traduire ? En fait, c'est une question, peut-être, qui fâche. De quoi vous vivez ? Qui vous paie ? et est-ce que c'est le gouvernement américain is helping association like Creative Commons, and who pays you to do this? Because from my eyes you're the incarnation of general interest and as a French citizen I’m asking myself which organization, and I hope you will answer me American government is paying you?<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' As far as I know, no<br />
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'''Public :''' No, sure? <br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' American government is not paying me.<br />
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'''Public :''' Or federal government? Californian, you're from San Francisco...<br />
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'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK, I used to work at Creative Commons, I don't work at Creative Commons now, so not only is Creative Commons not paying me, not only is American government not paying, actually no one is paying me because I'm jobless, I'm actually looking for a job. I'm jobless and homeless.<br />
<br />
So the second question I think you eluded that American government was paying Creative Commons, no American government is not paying Creative Commons. Creative Commons is a non profit organization founded by foundations, philanthropic foundations, American government has no hand in anything. American government does fund science projects like any countries government fund science projects in that country, higher than such projects you know there are organizations like National Health, National science foundation, and they give grants to universities, and universities give them to scientists who their projects, so in the end I guess the money comes from American government, American government gets money from me, because I'm a tax payer, unless you are in Greece or somewhere, most people pay taxes. And when you pay taxes, that's what the government gets. I understand in France you pay a lot of taxes, right, and in return you get a lot of things. So that's really what happens. Did I answer your question?<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Yes.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' OK. Just to be clear, I don't work for anyone, I'm independent contractor working for myself. I’ve no boss, which is a very good thing.<br />
<br />
'''Georges:''' Still a few minutes left, so if somebody has another question?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Anything else? Ask me anything.<br />
<br />
== 43'49 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' So we're working for a software which is developed by people in Europe ?? and so on, on mailing list we had some discussions that are a bit too flamatory if I can say, so we have a big discussion about code of conduct, we hit difference of culture in states in Europe, the thing is, would you say that code of conduct is a law or not?<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, certainly not.<br />
<br />
'''Public:''' Because many people reacted to , thinking, of course it is not an official law imposed, it was the community organising itself and, but for many people reacted, in particular people from Europe reacted to this, or a group of people, as a group is trying to impose a law, and if it's a code of conduct it’s a law, and if it's a law there should be distinctions, punishments if people...<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' No, I would say it's not a law, it is something agreed upon by a group, let's say you invite me to your house for diner, you invite all of us to your house for diner tonight, and when we come in there you say that we have to take our shoes off before entering. And I decide to not take my shoes off, you can throw me out of your house. Is that a law? No. it's just a code of conduct you've established, right? ?? like that, no there could be cultural differences, maybe in my culture it is against my honour to take off my shoes. How dare you say I should take off my shoes? Well then it becomes a problem, right? So that's always there, so no I don't think code of conduct is law, and ?? it’s a really good thing because if you can come to a conclusion, then you manage to create something without involving law. And that's the thing we're trying to get at, because lawyers are expensive and confusion etcetera. In the end of course if a legal rule is broken, the law would come in, right? I mean if I come into your house and take off my shoes and come in and everything than I steal you're cutlery something like that, then I've broken law, I committed a crime and you can report me. It may not be worth it, if I've just stolen a fork, but I've broken a law. But I personally don't think code of conduct is law, I do understand the difficulty a code of conduct cross-cultural situation because definitely the major differences between America and Europe in terms of cultural expectations.<br />
<br />
== 46'55 - transcrit Juu ==<br />
<br />
'''Public:'' So what do you think about strict chairman.<br />
<br />
'''Puneet Kishor:''' Strict chairman? Very, very important. <br />
Out of time! Thank you!</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Utilisateur:JennyB&diff=81355Utilisateur:JennyB2018-11-06T15:07:38Z<p>JennyB : </p>
<hr />
<div>Coucou :p<br />
<br />
Je suis nouvelle (suis venue 2 fois aux réus).<br />
<br />
Je fais en ce moment ma 3e relecture (https://wiki.april.org/w/M%C3%A9dias_%C3%A0_transcrire#.C3.80_relire_avec_ou_sans_le_son)<br />
<br />
== Ai relu ==<br />
* [[Signotheque]] <br />
* [[Procès_de_l'intelligence_artificielle_à_la_Cour_d'appel_de_Paris_-_Benjamin_Bayart]] : penser aux titres (n'ai pas effacé un titre temps)<br />
<br />
Jenn<br />
<br />
== Divers ==<br />
<br />
=== Codes wiki utiles ===<br />
commentaires <nowiki><!-- Temps vidéo : 3 mn 54 sur 20 mn 42 --></nowiki></div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Utilisateur:JennyB&diff=81354Utilisateur:JennyB2018-11-06T14:48:13Z<p>JennyB : </p>
<hr />
<div>Coucou :p<br />
<br />
Je suis nouvelle (suis venue 2 fois aux réus).<br />
<br />
Je fais en ce moment ma 3e relecture (https://wiki.april.org/w/M%C3%A9dias_%C3%A0_transcrire#.C3.80_relire_avec_ou_sans_le_son)<br />
<br />
Ai relu : <br />
* [[Signotheque]] <br />
* [[Procès_de_l'intelligence_artificielle_à_la_Cour_d'appel_de_Paris_-_Benjamin_Bayart]] : penser aux titres (n'ai pas effacé un titre temps)<br />
<br />
Jenn</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Utilisateur:JennyB&diff=81353Utilisateur:JennyB2018-11-06T14:43:57Z<p>JennyB : Page créée avec « Coucou :p Je suis nouvelle (suis venue 2 fois aux réus). Je fais en ce moment la 3e relecture (https://wiki.april.org/w/M%C3%A9dias_%C3%A0_transcrire#.C3.80_relire_avec... »</p>
<hr />
<div>Coucou :p<br />
<br />
Je suis nouvelle (suis venue 2 fois aux réus).<br />
<br />
Je fais en ce moment la 3e relecture (https://wiki.april.org/w/M%C3%A9dias_%C3%A0_transcrire#.C3.80_relire_avec_ou_sans_le_son)<br />
<br />
Jenn</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=M%C3%A9dias_%C3%A0_transcrire&diff=81352Médias à transcrire2018-11-06T14:42:43Z<p>JennyB : /* À relire avec ou sans le son */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Transcriptions2.png|right|150px]] <br />
<br />
== Présentation == <br />
<br />
La page principale pour les médias sur le site de l'April est ici: http://www.april.org/fr/videos.<br />
<br />
L'ensemble de ces fichiers sur le serveur sont stockés ici: http://media.april.org/video/ et http://media.april.org/audio/.<br />
<br />
Sur le wiki, une page permet de noter les caractéristiques des fichiers audio et vidéo qui sont sur le serveur avant d'en faire une fiche sur le site web : [[AudioVideo]].<br />
<br />
'''Ces médias sont tous en rapport avec le Logiciel Libre, sa défense, sa promotion…'''<br />
<br />
{{Boite | titre= Les prochaines transcriptions du groupe<br />
| bordure=rgb(132, 136, 220)|fond=Honeydew |largeur=70% |couleurTitre=tomato}}<br />
<br />
''' Les vidéos de la liste ''À relire ou en relecture'''''<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<strong>Si vous avez des médias à proposer, complétez la liste ''Suggestions'' et envoyez un message.</strong> <br />
{{BoiteFin}}<br />
<br />
=== Suggestions ===<br />
<br />
*[http://www.la-bas.org/article.php3?id_article=2931 Émission france-inter Là-bas si j'y suis du 05/02/2014 Le bon Dieu te regarde même si tu es aux cabinets 1]<br />
<br />
*[http://www.franceinter.fr/emission-la-bas-si-jy-suis-le-bon-dieu-te-regarde-meme-quand-tu-es-aux-cabinets-2 Émission france-inter Là-bas si j'y suis du 05/02/2014 Le bon Dieu te regarde même si tu es aux cabinets 2]<br />
<br />
*[http://www.freetorrent.fr/index.php?page=torrent-details&id=e8ae902cca9e4d5dd7f8a9691bb6b45fdc8a7e8f Logiciel Libre, Société Libre - Richard M. Stallman à Grenoble - avril 2014] 2h 23 min<br />
<br />
*[https://facil.qc.ca/fsm2016-grande-conf-logiciel-libre La grande conférence sur le logiciel libre avec RMS et Marianne Corvellec - Forum social mondial 2016] 2 h 16 min 26<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZFi-vtqrpo&feature=youtu.be Audition programmatique #20 - Numérique - April et Savoirs communs] 1 h 07 min 39<br />
<br />
* [https://rmll.ubicast.tv/channels/#2017-saint-etienne Conférences des RMLL2017] ad libitum NB : diverses conférences déjà transcrites et publiées<br />
<br />
* [https://framatube.org/media?q=jdll2017 Conférences des JDLL Lyon 2017] ad libitum NB : diverses conférences déjà transcrites et publiées<br />
<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/embed/_D1TTMOjZiE?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent Données personnelles et vie privée : ce qui va changer avec le RGPD] 01 h 53 min 49 sec<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbDOuZYmv68 Travailler ensemble pour la défense des libertés - Benjamin Bayart, Pierre-Yves GOSSET, piks3l] 1 h 30 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/linvite-des-matins/neutralite-du-net-hegemonie-des-gafa-la-democratie-prise-dans-la-toile Neutralité du net, hégémonie des GAFA : la démocratie prise dans la toile] 15 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/claire-mathieu/inaugural-lecture-2017-11-16-18h00.htm Algorithmes - Leçon inaugurale - Claire Mathieu] 1 h 3 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/affaires-sensibles/affaires-sensibles-28-novembre-2017 Le grand méchant darknet - Amaelle Guitton] 54 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=0IhQGYgT2vE « Web et vie privée » - Stéphane Bortzmeyer - 2018] 41 min <br />
<br />
*[https://radio.amicus-curiae.net/podcast/open-data-donnees-ouvertes-pour-monde-ouvert-ou-totalitaire/ Open data, données ouvertes pour un monde ouvert ou totalitaire - Amicus Radio] 36 min 45<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/comme-un-bruit-qui-court/comme-un-bruit-qui-court-12-mai-2018 Données personnelles : Gare au GAFAM] 53 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDPFnywbWDo&index=35&list=PLTbQvx84FrASpPvTGt_0BzttHUvMEvXyP Philosophie de l'Intelligence artificielle - Une introduction] 39 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/l-instant-m/l-instant-m-08-juin-2018 Comment se fabriquent les "fake news" ? Antonio Casilli] 18 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=lgOrpwPfW00 Enjeux de la blockchain pour les collectivités | Congrès ADULLACT 2018 - Stéphane Bortzmeyer] 58 min 32<br />
<br />
*[http://www.canalc2.tv/video/15198 Les formats, un sujet toujours d'actualité - Thierry Stoehr - RMLL2018] 59 min 40<br />
<br />
*[https://www.france24.com/fr/20180912-debat-france24-union-europeenne-hongrie-gafa-facebook-google-internet?ref=fb Droit d'auteur : aux géants du net de payer ?] 26 min 15<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=57&v=5dVmayb6sp4 CN2018 TABLE RONDE] 42 min 46<br />
<br />
*[https://webtv.utc.fr/watch_video.php?v=XUAU4YKB1XMX Des communs fonciers aux communs numériques - Benjamin Coriat] 49 min 25<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=SOXAnl7qO8c Parlons-en - Framasoft et le Libre avec Pouhiou] 31 min 33<br />
<br />
* [https://www.april.org/decryptualite-du-8-octobre-2018-fablab-quand-la-maitrise-de-la-technologie-alimente-notre-creativite Décryptualité du 8 octobre 2018 - Fablab : quand la maîtrise de la technologie alimente notre créativité et nous donne du pouvoir sur nos vies] 15 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/la-methode-scientifique/ethique-numerique-des-datas-sous-serment Éthique numérique, des datas sous serment] 58 min<br />
<br />
*[https://entreprise.maif.fr/entreprise/pour-une-societe-collaborative/decouvrir-nos-actions/nos-conference-et-debats-a-partager-replay Qui contrôle internet et les médias sociaux - Divina Frau-Meigs - 03/10/2018 à Lons Le Saunier (39)] 1:06:22<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Travaux ==<br />
<br />
<br />
=== En cours ===<br />
<br />
* [[Free_Libre_alternatives_to_GAFAMs_Internet_a_review_of_French_Initiatives]] : Free/Libre alternatives to GAFAMs Internet a review of French Initiatives, Marianne Corvellec and Jonathan Le Lous à LibrePlanet 2016<br />
<br />
* [[Open_Experience_Art_et_Culture ]] Open Experience : Quels modèles économiques pour l’Open dans l’Art et la Culture ? Lionel Maurel<br />
<br />
* [[Audition et logiciels libres : conférence RMLL juillet 2013]] commencée par Irina<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Tristan_Nitot_-_BacFM_Nevers Tristan Nitot interviewé sur BACFM à Nevers dans le cadre d'une émission sur l’événement Dégooglisons internet]] commencée par Techno2900<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/L%27%C3%A9cologie_et_le_num%C3%A9rique L'écologie et le numérique]] commencée par Mammig*<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
=== À relire avec ou sans le son ===<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Pourquoi_le_LL_est-il_plus_important_que_jamais Pourquoi le logiciel libre est-il plus important que jamais - Conf Richard Stallman - Janvier 2014 - Cité des sciences - Paris] 1h 33 min<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Faut-il_breveter_les_logiciels Faut-il breveter les logiciels ? Table ronde - Aquitaine Science Transfert] 2 heures 3 min<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Conf%C3%A9rence_%22Logiciels_libres_:_impacts_et_enjeux_sur_la_soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9%22_Nantes Logiciels libres : impacts et enjeux sur la société - Jeanne Tadeusz à Nantes] 1h 40 min relu en entier avec le son, mais nécessiterait une ultime relecture car le son n'est pas très bon<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/R%C3%A9trospective_juridique_-_Actualit%C3%A9_-_Travaux_en_cours_-_Benjamin_Jean_-_RMLL2015#10.27_16 Rétrospective juridique : actualité et travaux en cours - Benjamin Jean - RMLL2015] 40 min 38<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Mettre_en_place_une_politique_publique_en_faveur_du_logiciel_libre_-_Table_ronde Mettre en place une politique publique en faveur du logiciel libre - Table ronde au POSS 2016 animée par Étienne Gonnu] 1 h 36 min 29<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/La_sph%C3%A8re_s'int%C3%A9resse_au_logiciel_libre_-_Radio_Canada Logiciels libres - La sphère - Radio-Canada] 53 min<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Enseignement_sup%C3%A9rieur,_recherche_et_Logiciel_Libre_-_RMLL2018 Enseignement supérieur, recherche et Logiciel Libre - RMLL2018] 1 h 04 min 38<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Pourquoi_une_biblioth%C3%A8que_universelle_des_logiciels_-_Software_Heritage_-_Roberto_Di_Cosmo Pourquoi une bibliothèque universelle des logiciels - Software Heritage - Roberto Di Cosmo] 48 min 30<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Internet_:_neutre_mais_pas_trop Internet : neutre mais pas trop ?] 58 min<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/J%C3%A9r%C3%A9mie_Zimmermann_:_1984,_un_manuel_d%E2%80%99instructions Jérémie Zimmermann : 1984, un manuel d’instructions] 1 h 24 min<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Blockchain_-_Les_temps_%C3%A9lectriques_-_Primavera_De_Filippi Blockchain - Les temps électriques - Primavera De Filippi] 39 min<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es Éthique et l’intégrité de la collecte et de partage des données] Conférence en anglais de 47 min - relecture en cours par [[JennyB]]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
===Relu avec le son, en attente de relecture orthographique===<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Responsabilit%C3%A9_des_ing%C3%A9nieurs_-_%C3%89ric_Sadin Responsabilité des ingénieurs - Éric Sadin] 26 min <b>NB : </b> M. Sadin donnera son accord, ou pas, pour la publication de cette transcription, donc en attente - relu par Bookynette & Khrys<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Projet_Signoth%C3%A8que_-_PSESHSP_2016 Projet Signothèque - Association Arboré'Sign _ PSESHSF 2016] 43 min 45 - relu par Khrys<br />
<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Procès_de_l'intelligence_artificielle_à_la_Cour_d'appel_de_Paris_-_Benjamin_Bayart Procès de l'intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris - Benjamin Bayart] 20 min 40 - relu (une note et ajout de titres, n'ai pas retiré un titre, finir les titres) par JennyB le 6/11/2018<br />
<br />
=== En attente de validation ===<br />
<br />
* [[TEDx_Frederic_Couchet]] sous titrage à mettre en ligne sur le site web<br />
<br />
=== Publiées dans le mois ===<br />
<br />
* [https://www.april.org/contributopia-degoogliser-ne-suffit-pas-peut-faire-du-libre-sans-vision-politique-pierre-yves-gosset Contributopia : Dégoogliser ne suffit pas ! Peut-on faire du libre sans vision politique ? - Pierre-Yves Gosset - RMLL2018] 1 h 29 min 40<br />
<br />
* [https://www.april.org/web-et-vie-privee-stephane-bortzmeyer Web et vie privée - Stéphane Bortzmeyer] 41 min 40<br />
<br />
===[[Transcriptions publiées]]===<br />
<br />
== Retour ==<br />
à la [[Transcriptions page d'accueil|page]] d'accueil du groupe.<br />
<br />
[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
[[Catégorie:Video]]</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=M%C3%A9dias_%C3%A0_transcrire&diff=81351Médias à transcrire2018-11-06T14:33:17Z<p>JennyB : /* Relu avec le son, en attente de relecture orthographique */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Transcriptions2.png|right|150px]] <br />
<br />
== Présentation == <br />
<br />
La page principale pour les médias sur le site de l'April est ici: http://www.april.org/fr/videos.<br />
<br />
L'ensemble de ces fichiers sur le serveur sont stockés ici: http://media.april.org/video/ et http://media.april.org/audio/.<br />
<br />
Sur le wiki, une page permet de noter les caractéristiques des fichiers audio et vidéo qui sont sur le serveur avant d'en faire une fiche sur le site web : [[AudioVideo]].<br />
<br />
'''Ces médias sont tous en rapport avec le Logiciel Libre, sa défense, sa promotion…'''<br />
<br />
{{Boite | titre= Les prochaines transcriptions du groupe<br />
| bordure=rgb(132, 136, 220)|fond=Honeydew |largeur=70% |couleurTitre=tomato}}<br />
<br />
''' Les vidéos de la liste ''À relire ou en relecture'''''<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<strong>Si vous avez des médias à proposer, complétez la liste ''Suggestions'' et envoyez un message.</strong> <br />
{{BoiteFin}}<br />
<br />
=== Suggestions ===<br />
<br />
*[http://www.la-bas.org/article.php3?id_article=2931 Émission france-inter Là-bas si j'y suis du 05/02/2014 Le bon Dieu te regarde même si tu es aux cabinets 1]<br />
<br />
*[http://www.franceinter.fr/emission-la-bas-si-jy-suis-le-bon-dieu-te-regarde-meme-quand-tu-es-aux-cabinets-2 Émission france-inter Là-bas si j'y suis du 05/02/2014 Le bon Dieu te regarde même si tu es aux cabinets 2]<br />
<br />
*[http://www.freetorrent.fr/index.php?page=torrent-details&id=e8ae902cca9e4d5dd7f8a9691bb6b45fdc8a7e8f Logiciel Libre, Société Libre - Richard M. Stallman à Grenoble - avril 2014] 2h 23 min<br />
<br />
*[https://facil.qc.ca/fsm2016-grande-conf-logiciel-libre La grande conférence sur le logiciel libre avec RMS et Marianne Corvellec - Forum social mondial 2016] 2 h 16 min 26<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZFi-vtqrpo&feature=youtu.be Audition programmatique #20 - Numérique - April et Savoirs communs] 1 h 07 min 39<br />
<br />
* [https://rmll.ubicast.tv/channels/#2017-saint-etienne Conférences des RMLL2017] ad libitum NB : diverses conférences déjà transcrites et publiées<br />
<br />
* [https://framatube.org/media?q=jdll2017 Conférences des JDLL Lyon 2017] ad libitum NB : diverses conférences déjà transcrites et publiées<br />
<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/embed/_D1TTMOjZiE?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent Données personnelles et vie privée : ce qui va changer avec le RGPD] 01 h 53 min 49 sec<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbDOuZYmv68 Travailler ensemble pour la défense des libertés - Benjamin Bayart, Pierre-Yves GOSSET, piks3l] 1 h 30 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/linvite-des-matins/neutralite-du-net-hegemonie-des-gafa-la-democratie-prise-dans-la-toile Neutralité du net, hégémonie des GAFA : la démocratie prise dans la toile] 15 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/claire-mathieu/inaugural-lecture-2017-11-16-18h00.htm Algorithmes - Leçon inaugurale - Claire Mathieu] 1 h 3 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/affaires-sensibles/affaires-sensibles-28-novembre-2017 Le grand méchant darknet - Amaelle Guitton] 54 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=0IhQGYgT2vE « Web et vie privée » - Stéphane Bortzmeyer - 2018] 41 min <br />
<br />
*[https://radio.amicus-curiae.net/podcast/open-data-donnees-ouvertes-pour-monde-ouvert-ou-totalitaire/ Open data, données ouvertes pour un monde ouvert ou totalitaire - Amicus Radio] 36 min 45<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/comme-un-bruit-qui-court/comme-un-bruit-qui-court-12-mai-2018 Données personnelles : Gare au GAFAM] 53 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDPFnywbWDo&index=35&list=PLTbQvx84FrASpPvTGt_0BzttHUvMEvXyP Philosophie de l'Intelligence artificielle - Une introduction] 39 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/l-instant-m/l-instant-m-08-juin-2018 Comment se fabriquent les "fake news" ? Antonio Casilli] 18 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=lgOrpwPfW00 Enjeux de la blockchain pour les collectivités | Congrès ADULLACT 2018 - Stéphane Bortzmeyer] 58 min 32<br />
<br />
*[http://www.canalc2.tv/video/15198 Les formats, un sujet toujours d'actualité - Thierry Stoehr - RMLL2018] 59 min 40<br />
<br />
*[https://www.france24.com/fr/20180912-debat-france24-union-europeenne-hongrie-gafa-facebook-google-internet?ref=fb Droit d'auteur : aux géants du net de payer ?] 26 min 15<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=57&v=5dVmayb6sp4 CN2018 TABLE RONDE] 42 min 46<br />
<br />
*[https://webtv.utc.fr/watch_video.php?v=XUAU4YKB1XMX Des communs fonciers aux communs numériques - Benjamin Coriat] 49 min 25<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=SOXAnl7qO8c Parlons-en - Framasoft et le Libre avec Pouhiou] 31 min 33<br />
<br />
* [https://www.april.org/decryptualite-du-8-octobre-2018-fablab-quand-la-maitrise-de-la-technologie-alimente-notre-creativite Décryptualité du 8 octobre 2018 - Fablab : quand la maîtrise de la technologie alimente notre créativité et nous donne du pouvoir sur nos vies] 15 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/la-methode-scientifique/ethique-numerique-des-datas-sous-serment Éthique numérique, des datas sous serment] 58 min<br />
<br />
*[https://entreprise.maif.fr/entreprise/pour-une-societe-collaborative/decouvrir-nos-actions/nos-conference-et-debats-a-partager-replay Qui contrôle internet et les médias sociaux - Divina Frau-Meigs - 03/10/2018 à Lons Le Saunier (39)] 1:06:22<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Travaux ==<br />
<br />
<br />
=== En cours ===<br />
<br />
* [[Free_Libre_alternatives_to_GAFAMs_Internet_a_review_of_French_Initiatives]] : Free/Libre alternatives to GAFAMs Internet a review of French Initiatives, Marianne Corvellec and Jonathan Le Lous à LibrePlanet 2016<br />
<br />
* [[Open_Experience_Art_et_Culture ]] Open Experience : Quels modèles économiques pour l’Open dans l’Art et la Culture ? Lionel Maurel<br />
<br />
* [[Audition et logiciels libres : conférence RMLL juillet 2013]] commencée par Irina<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Tristan_Nitot_-_BacFM_Nevers Tristan Nitot interviewé sur BACFM à Nevers dans le cadre d'une émission sur l’événement Dégooglisons internet]] commencée par Techno2900<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/L%27%C3%A9cologie_et_le_num%C3%A9rique L'écologie et le numérique]] commencée par Mammig*<br />
<br />
<br />
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<br />
=== À relire avec ou sans le son ===<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es Éthique et l’intégrité de la collecte et de partage des données] Conférence en anglais de 47 min<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Pourquoi_le_LL_est-il_plus_important_que_jamais Pourquoi le logiciel libre est-il plus important que jamais - Conf Richard Stallman - Janvier 2014 - Cité des sciences - Paris] 1h 33 min<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Faut-il_breveter_les_logiciels Faut-il breveter les logiciels ? Table ronde - Aquitaine Science Transfert] 2 heures 3 min<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Conf%C3%A9rence_%22Logiciels_libres_:_impacts_et_enjeux_sur_la_soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9%22_Nantes Logiciels libres : impacts et enjeux sur la société - Jeanne Tadeusz à Nantes] 1h 40 min relu en entier avec le son, mais nécessiterait une ultime relecture car le son n'est pas très bon<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/R%C3%A9trospective_juridique_-_Actualit%C3%A9_-_Travaux_en_cours_-_Benjamin_Jean_-_RMLL2015#10.27_16 Rétrospective juridique : actualité et travaux en cours - Benjamin Jean - RMLL2015] 40 min 38<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Mettre_en_place_une_politique_publique_en_faveur_du_logiciel_libre_-_Table_ronde Mettre en place une politique publique en faveur du logiciel libre - Table ronde au POSS 2016 animée par Étienne Gonnu] 1 h 36 min 29<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/La_sph%C3%A8re_s'int%C3%A9resse_au_logiciel_libre_-_Radio_Canada Logiciels libres - La sphère - Radio-Canada] 53 min<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Enseignement_sup%C3%A9rieur,_recherche_et_Logiciel_Libre_-_RMLL2018 Enseignement supérieur, recherche et Logiciel Libre - RMLL2018] 1 h 04 min 38<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Pourquoi_une_biblioth%C3%A8que_universelle_des_logiciels_-_Software_Heritage_-_Roberto_Di_Cosmo Pourquoi une bibliothèque universelle des logiciels - Software Heritage - Roberto Di Cosmo] 48 min 30<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Internet_:_neutre_mais_pas_trop Internet : neutre mais pas trop ?] 58 min<br />
<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/J%C3%A9r%C3%A9mie_Zimmermann_:_1984,_un_manuel_d%E2%80%99instructions Jérémie Zimmermann : 1984, un manuel d’instructions] 1 h 24 min<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Blockchain_-_Les_temps_%C3%A9lectriques_-_Primavera_De_Filippi Blockchain - Les temps électriques - Primavera De Filippi] 39 min<br />
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===Relu avec le son, en attente de relecture orthographique===<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Responsabilit%C3%A9_des_ing%C3%A9nieurs_-_%C3%89ric_Sadin Responsabilité des ingénieurs - Éric Sadin] 26 min <b>NB : </b> M. Sadin donnera son accord, ou pas, pour la publication de cette transcription, donc en attente - relu par Bookynette & Khrys<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Projet_Signoth%C3%A8que_-_PSESHSP_2016 Projet Signothèque - Association Arboré'Sign _ PSESHSF 2016] 43 min 45 - relu par Khrys<br />
<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Procès_de_l'intelligence_artificielle_à_la_Cour_d'appel_de_Paris_-_Benjamin_Bayart Procès de l'intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris - Benjamin Bayart] 20 min 40 - relu (une note et ajout de titres, n'ai pas retiré un titre, finir les titres) par JennyB le 6/11/2018<br />
<br />
=== En attente de validation ===<br />
<br />
* [[TEDx_Frederic_Couchet]] sous titrage à mettre en ligne sur le site web<br />
<br />
=== Publiées dans le mois ===<br />
<br />
* [https://www.april.org/contributopia-degoogliser-ne-suffit-pas-peut-faire-du-libre-sans-vision-politique-pierre-yves-gosset Contributopia : Dégoogliser ne suffit pas ! Peut-on faire du libre sans vision politique ? - Pierre-Yves Gosset - RMLL2018] 1 h 29 min 40<br />
<br />
* [https://www.april.org/web-et-vie-privee-stephane-bortzmeyer Web et vie privée - Stéphane Bortzmeyer] 41 min 40<br />
<br />
===[[Transcriptions publiées]]===<br />
<br />
== Retour ==<br />
à la [[Transcriptions page d'accueil|page]] d'accueil du groupe.<br />
<br />
[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
[[Catégorie:Video]]</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=M%C3%A9dias_%C3%A0_transcrire&diff=81350Médias à transcrire2018-11-06T14:31:37Z<p>JennyB : /* À relire avec ou sans le son */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Image:Transcriptions2.png|right|150px]] <br />
<br />
== Présentation == <br />
<br />
La page principale pour les médias sur le site de l'April est ici: http://www.april.org/fr/videos.<br />
<br />
L'ensemble de ces fichiers sur le serveur sont stockés ici: http://media.april.org/video/ et http://media.april.org/audio/.<br />
<br />
Sur le wiki, une page permet de noter les caractéristiques des fichiers audio et vidéo qui sont sur le serveur avant d'en faire une fiche sur le site web : [[AudioVideo]].<br />
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'''Ces médias sont tous en rapport avec le Logiciel Libre, sa défense, sa promotion…'''<br />
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{{Boite | titre= Les prochaines transcriptions du groupe<br />
| bordure=rgb(132, 136, 220)|fond=Honeydew |largeur=70% |couleurTitre=tomato}}<br />
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''' Les vidéos de la liste ''À relire ou en relecture'''''<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<strong>Si vous avez des médias à proposer, complétez la liste ''Suggestions'' et envoyez un message.</strong> <br />
{{BoiteFin}}<br />
<br />
=== Suggestions ===<br />
<br />
*[http://www.la-bas.org/article.php3?id_article=2931 Émission france-inter Là-bas si j'y suis du 05/02/2014 Le bon Dieu te regarde même si tu es aux cabinets 1]<br />
<br />
*[http://www.franceinter.fr/emission-la-bas-si-jy-suis-le-bon-dieu-te-regarde-meme-quand-tu-es-aux-cabinets-2 Émission france-inter Là-bas si j'y suis du 05/02/2014 Le bon Dieu te regarde même si tu es aux cabinets 2]<br />
<br />
*[http://www.freetorrent.fr/index.php?page=torrent-details&id=e8ae902cca9e4d5dd7f8a9691bb6b45fdc8a7e8f Logiciel Libre, Société Libre - Richard M. Stallman à Grenoble - avril 2014] 2h 23 min<br />
<br />
*[https://facil.qc.ca/fsm2016-grande-conf-logiciel-libre La grande conférence sur le logiciel libre avec RMS et Marianne Corvellec - Forum social mondial 2016] 2 h 16 min 26<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZFi-vtqrpo&feature=youtu.be Audition programmatique #20 - Numérique - April et Savoirs communs] 1 h 07 min 39<br />
<br />
* [https://rmll.ubicast.tv/channels/#2017-saint-etienne Conférences des RMLL2017] ad libitum NB : diverses conférences déjà transcrites et publiées<br />
<br />
* [https://framatube.org/media?q=jdll2017 Conférences des JDLL Lyon 2017] ad libitum NB : diverses conférences déjà transcrites et publiées<br />
<br />
* [https://www.youtube.com/embed/_D1TTMOjZiE?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent Données personnelles et vie privée : ce qui va changer avec le RGPD] 01 h 53 min 49 sec<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbDOuZYmv68 Travailler ensemble pour la défense des libertés - Benjamin Bayart, Pierre-Yves GOSSET, piks3l] 1 h 30 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/linvite-des-matins/neutralite-du-net-hegemonie-des-gafa-la-democratie-prise-dans-la-toile Neutralité du net, hégémonie des GAFA : la démocratie prise dans la toile] 15 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.college-de-france.fr/site/claire-mathieu/inaugural-lecture-2017-11-16-18h00.htm Algorithmes - Leçon inaugurale - Claire Mathieu] 1 h 3 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/affaires-sensibles/affaires-sensibles-28-novembre-2017 Le grand méchant darknet - Amaelle Guitton] 54 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=0IhQGYgT2vE « Web et vie privée » - Stéphane Bortzmeyer - 2018] 41 min <br />
<br />
*[https://radio.amicus-curiae.net/podcast/open-data-donnees-ouvertes-pour-monde-ouvert-ou-totalitaire/ Open data, données ouvertes pour un monde ouvert ou totalitaire - Amicus Radio] 36 min 45<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/comme-un-bruit-qui-court/comme-un-bruit-qui-court-12-mai-2018 Données personnelles : Gare au GAFAM] 53 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDPFnywbWDo&index=35&list=PLTbQvx84FrASpPvTGt_0BzttHUvMEvXyP Philosophie de l'Intelligence artificielle - Une introduction] 39 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/l-instant-m/l-instant-m-08-juin-2018 Comment se fabriquent les "fake news" ? Antonio Casilli] 18 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=lgOrpwPfW00 Enjeux de la blockchain pour les collectivités | Congrès ADULLACT 2018 - Stéphane Bortzmeyer] 58 min 32<br />
<br />
*[http://www.canalc2.tv/video/15198 Les formats, un sujet toujours d'actualité - Thierry Stoehr - RMLL2018] 59 min 40<br />
<br />
*[https://www.france24.com/fr/20180912-debat-france24-union-europeenne-hongrie-gafa-facebook-google-internet?ref=fb Droit d'auteur : aux géants du net de payer ?] 26 min 15<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=57&v=5dVmayb6sp4 CN2018 TABLE RONDE] 42 min 46<br />
<br />
*[https://webtv.utc.fr/watch_video.php?v=XUAU4YKB1XMX Des communs fonciers aux communs numériques - Benjamin Coriat] 49 min 25<br />
<br />
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=SOXAnl7qO8c Parlons-en - Framasoft et le Libre avec Pouhiou] 31 min 33<br />
<br />
* [https://www.april.org/decryptualite-du-8-octobre-2018-fablab-quand-la-maitrise-de-la-technologie-alimente-notre-creativite Décryptualité du 8 octobre 2018 - Fablab : quand la maîtrise de la technologie alimente notre créativité et nous donne du pouvoir sur nos vies] 15 min<br />
<br />
*[https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/la-methode-scientifique/ethique-numerique-des-datas-sous-serment Éthique numérique, des datas sous serment] 58 min<br />
<br />
*[https://entreprise.maif.fr/entreprise/pour-une-societe-collaborative/decouvrir-nos-actions/nos-conference-et-debats-a-partager-replay Qui contrôle internet et les médias sociaux - Divina Frau-Meigs - 03/10/2018 à Lons Le Saunier (39)] 1:06:22<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Travaux ==<br />
<br />
<br />
=== En cours ===<br />
<br />
* [[Free_Libre_alternatives_to_GAFAMs_Internet_a_review_of_French_Initiatives]] : Free/Libre alternatives to GAFAMs Internet a review of French Initiatives, Marianne Corvellec and Jonathan Le Lous à LibrePlanet 2016<br />
<br />
* [[Open_Experience_Art_et_Culture ]] Open Experience : Quels modèles économiques pour l’Open dans l’Art et la Culture ? Lionel Maurel<br />
<br />
* [[Audition et logiciels libres : conférence RMLL juillet 2013]] commencée par Irina<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Tristan_Nitot_-_BacFM_Nevers Tristan Nitot interviewé sur BACFM à Nevers dans le cadre d'une émission sur l’événement Dégooglisons internet]] commencée par Techno2900<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/L%27%C3%A9cologie_et_le_num%C3%A9rique L'écologie et le numérique]] commencée par Mammig*<br />
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<br />
----<br />
<br />
=== À relire avec ou sans le son ===<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Ethique_et_l%27int%C3%A9grit%C3%A9_collecte_donn%C3%A9es Éthique et l’intégrité de la collecte et de partage des données] Conférence en anglais de 47 min<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Pourquoi_le_LL_est-il_plus_important_que_jamais Pourquoi le logiciel libre est-il plus important que jamais - Conf Richard Stallman - Janvier 2014 - Cité des sciences - Paris] 1h 33 min<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Faut-il_breveter_les_logiciels Faut-il breveter les logiciels ? Table ronde - Aquitaine Science Transfert] 2 heures 3 min<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Conf%C3%A9rence_%22Logiciels_libres_:_impacts_et_enjeux_sur_la_soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9%22_Nantes Logiciels libres : impacts et enjeux sur la société - Jeanne Tadeusz à Nantes] 1h 40 min relu en entier avec le son, mais nécessiterait une ultime relecture car le son n'est pas très bon<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/R%C3%A9trospective_juridique_-_Actualit%C3%A9_-_Travaux_en_cours_-_Benjamin_Jean_-_RMLL2015#10.27_16 Rétrospective juridique : actualité et travaux en cours - Benjamin Jean - RMLL2015] 40 min 38<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Mettre_en_place_une_politique_publique_en_faveur_du_logiciel_libre_-_Table_ronde Mettre en place une politique publique en faveur du logiciel libre - Table ronde au POSS 2016 animée par Étienne Gonnu] 1 h 36 min 29<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/La_sph%C3%A8re_s'int%C3%A9resse_au_logiciel_libre_-_Radio_Canada Logiciels libres - La sphère - Radio-Canada] 53 min<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Enseignement_sup%C3%A9rieur,_recherche_et_Logiciel_Libre_-_RMLL2018 Enseignement supérieur, recherche et Logiciel Libre - RMLL2018] 1 h 04 min 38<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Pourquoi_une_biblioth%C3%A8que_universelle_des_logiciels_-_Software_Heritage_-_Roberto_Di_Cosmo Pourquoi une bibliothèque universelle des logiciels - Software Heritage - Roberto Di Cosmo] 48 min 30<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Internet_:_neutre_mais_pas_trop Internet : neutre mais pas trop ?] 58 min<br />
<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/J%C3%A9r%C3%A9mie_Zimmermann_:_1984,_un_manuel_d%E2%80%99instructions Jérémie Zimmermann : 1984, un manuel d’instructions] 1 h 24 min<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Blockchain_-_Les_temps_%C3%A9lectriques_-_Primavera_De_Filippi Blockchain - Les temps électriques - Primavera De Filippi] 39 min<br />
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----<br />
<br />
===Relu avec le son, en attente de relecture orthographique===<br />
<br />
* [https://wiki.april.org/w/Responsabilit%C3%A9_des_ing%C3%A9nieurs_-_%C3%89ric_Sadin Responsabilité des ingénieurs - Éric Sadin] 26 min <b>NB : </b> M. Sadin donnera son accord, ou pas, pour la publication de cette transcription, donc en attente - relu par Bookynette & Khrys<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.april.org/w/Projet_Signoth%C3%A8que_-_PSESHSP_2016 Projet Signothèque - Association Arboré'Sign _ PSESHSF 2016] 43 min 45 - relu par Khrys<br />
<br />
=== En attente de validation ===<br />
<br />
* [[TEDx_Frederic_Couchet]] sous titrage à mettre en ligne sur le site web<br />
<br />
=== Publiées dans le mois ===<br />
<br />
* [https://www.april.org/contributopia-degoogliser-ne-suffit-pas-peut-faire-du-libre-sans-vision-politique-pierre-yves-gosset Contributopia : Dégoogliser ne suffit pas ! Peut-on faire du libre sans vision politique ? - Pierre-Yves Gosset - RMLL2018] 1 h 29 min 40<br />
<br />
* [https://www.april.org/web-et-vie-privee-stephane-bortzmeyer Web et vie privée - Stéphane Bortzmeyer] 41 min 40<br />
<br />
===[[Transcriptions publiées]]===<br />
<br />
== Retour ==<br />
à la [[Transcriptions page d'accueil|page]] d'accueil du groupe.<br />
<br />
[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
[[Catégorie:Video]]</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Proc%C3%A8s_de_l%27intelligence_artificielle_%C3%A0_la_Cour_d%27appel_de_Paris_-_Benjamin_Bayart&diff=81349Procès de l'intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris - Benjamin Bayart2018-11-06T14:21:18Z<p>JennyB : correction et ajout de titres</p>
<hr />
<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
<br />
'''Titre :''' Procès de l'intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris<br />
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'''Intervenant :''' Benjamin Bayart - <br />
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'''Lieu :''' Nuit du Droit - Premier procès fictif de l’intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris<br />
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'''Date :''' octobre 2018<br />
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'''Durée :''' 20 min 40<br />
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'''[https://video.lqdn.fr/videos/watch/88dbd3db-d47b-4296-978b-7fa2e7bbddfb Visionner la vidéo]'''<br />
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'''Licence de la transcription :''' [http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#VerbatimCopying Verbatim]<br />
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'''Illustration :'''<br />
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'''NB :''' <em>transcription réalisée par nos soins.<br /><br />
Les positions exprimées sont celles des personnes qui interviennent et ne rejoignent pas forcément celles de l'April.</em><br />
<br />
'''Statut :''' Transcrit MO. Relecture (avec son): JennyB <br />
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'''NB :''' <em>remarque d'une relectrice, JennyB</em><br /> L'expert est un homme blanc en costard cravate, le représentant du ministère public est une femme sans nom, et à qui on parle au masculin (le logiciel devient folle, il coupe la parole à Célia Zolinski...) <br /> De plus, le sujet et la forme choisies sont assez maladroits (la gestion de l'eau, du climat, l’espionnage, la propagande ? ou un projet militaire - avec le discours et la forme, cela aurait d’avantage collé MDR - que sait-il de la vie d'un animal de trait ?!? j’arrête là mais la liste est longue)... C'est trop "blanc-bobo-européen-centré" pour moi (et d'autres)<br />
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[[Utilisateur:JennyB|JennyB]] ([[Discussion utilisateur:JennyB|discussion]]) 6 novembre 2018 à 15:00 (CET)<br />
<br />
==Description==<br />
<br />
Le procès se déroule en 2041 alors que le législateur a octroyé la personnalité juridique à l’intelligence artificielle. Un immense carambolage de voitures autonomes – « le carambolage du siècle » – vient d’avoir lieu dans les rues de Paris. Les victimes sont nombreuses. La confiance dans l’intelligence artificielle est rompue.<br /><br />
Dans le contexte de la Nuit du Droit, un (faux) procès de l'intelligence artificielle a eu lieu, à la Cour d'appel de Paris. L'extrait présenté ici montre Benjamin Bayart, qui est appelé comme témoin dans un sur un cas de véhicule autonome.<br />
Participent aussi : Célia Zolinski : assesseure, Professeure de Droit Privé, Paris I et François Pellegrini, juré (professeur d'informatique, Bordeaux)<br />
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==Transcription==<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>La parole est au représentant du ministère public.<br />
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<b>Florence Lardet, représentant du ministère public : </b>Monsieur le président, j’aurais souhaité, si votre cour en était d’accord, qu’on commence par entendre le témoin qui est monsieur Bayart ici présent, car il me semble important que quelques termes soient précisés pour une parfaite compréhension des notions, à la fois de votre cour et des personnes qui se trouvent dans la salle.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Je n’y vois que des avantages. Le témoin est invité à se rapprocher de la barre.<br />
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<b>Florence Lardet, représentant du ministère public : </b>Je vais vous préciser les deux questions que je souhaitais poser.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Oui.<br />
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<b>Florence Lardet, représentant du ministère public : </b>Les deux questions qui semblent importantes. La première : finalement on parle d’intelligence artificielle, mais quelle est cette notion ? Qu’est-ce qu’elle veut dire précisément ? Après tout nous sommes des juristes, le poids des mots, les mots ont leur importance, il faudrait peut-être s’entendre sur ce qu’on met derrière cette notion et c’est pour ça qu’il me semble important de poser cette première question : qu’est-ce que l’intelligence artificielle ?<br /><br />
La deuxième question, ce serait celle des enjeux inhérents à la notion d’intelligence artificielle, surtout à la notion de personnalité juridique de l’intelligence artificielle, avec derrière cette question deux questions : qui est protégé et qui pâtit de la mise en place de cette personnalité juridique ?<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Monsieur, pouvez-vous nous indiquer votre nom, votre prénom, votre age, votre profession ?<br />
=== Benjamin Bayart à la barre ===<br />
<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Benjamin Bayart, 45 ans, ingénieur en informatique et actif autour des droits et des libertés du numérique depuis plus de 20 ans.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Vous n’êtes pas parent ni allié des parties, ni à leur service ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Non, je ne suis pas parent d’une IA.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Vous jurez de dire toute la vérité rien que la vérité et de ne pas propager de fausses nouvelles. Vous levez la main droite et vous dites je le jure.<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Je le jure.<br />
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=== Les deux questions === <br />
<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci beaucoup. Nous vous écoutons donc sur deux questions : la notion d’intelligence artificielle et quels enjeux à la personnalité juridique des intelligences artificielles ?<br />
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==== la notion d’intelligence artificielle ====<br />
<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Pour comprendre ce que c’est qu’une intelligence artificielle, c’est un mot qui est très compliqué parce que c’est un mot faux. En informatique, ça correspond à un domaine de spécialisation très particulier qui est presque une branche hybride entre les mathématiques et l’informatique, qui est une façon très particulière de programmer. Il n’y a pas d’intelligence du tout là-dedans, mais alors pas du tout, du tout ! Ce sont plutôt des statistiques et un pourcentage n’a jamais été intelligent.<br /><br />
De l’autre côté, dans la tête des gens, quand on dit intelligence artificielle, ils entendent le fait qu’un ordinateur soit intelligent, soit intelligent au sens même pas forcément où un humain est intelligent mais au sens où mon chat est intelligent : il est capable tout seul de trouver les croquettes ; il est intelligent ! Ça n’est pas la même chose.<br />
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La deuxième notion, celle où un ordinateur serait devenu véritablement intelligent, capable d’une intelligence conceptuelle, capable donc d’envie, exprimant un désir, exprimant une volonté, c’est ce qu’on appelle dans la littérature les intelligences artificielles fortes.<br /><br />
Le commun de ce qu’on nous vend sous le nom d’intelligence artificielle ne sont pas du tout des intelligences artificielles dans ce sens-là, mais au sens informatique traditionnel tel qu’on l’enseigne depuis la fin du 20e siècle : analyses statistiques, comportements prédictifs, éventuellement les systèmes dits experts qui n’ont rien d’intelligent, qui sont des enchaînements de règles extrêmement binaires.<br />
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C’est très important parce que ce mot quand on le projette, pour la majorité des gens, veut dire autre chose que ce qu’il est. Et il est très souvent utilisé, ou bien dans les systèmes médiatiques ou bien dans les systèmes marketing ou, pire, dans le croisement des deux qui est le système politique, pour enfumer tout le monde. Eh oui ! Si c’est l’ordinateur qui vous a sanctionné, qui vous a radié des listes des chômeurs, qui vous a privé de tel droit, qui a refusé votre prêt, l’ordinateur tout le monde demande mais qui l’a programmé ? Quelles règles est-ce qu’il applique ? Qu’est-ce qu’il fait ? Pourquoi il fait ça ?<br /><br />
À partir du moment où on dit c’est l’intelligence artificielle, hop ! ce n’est plus personne ! Ce n’est plus personne, il n’y a plus de responsable ! L’intelligence artificielle est supposée sachante, elle est supposée plus intelligente que moi et elle n’est plus contestable. On crée chez les gens le fait qu’ils se trouvent face à un système technologique qu’ils ne connaissent pas, qu’ils ne comprennent pas et qu’ils ne peuvent pas contester. Ils sont face véritablement à une décision magique. Et c’est un très bon moyen d’enfumer tout le monde.<br />
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Le deuxième élément c’est donc ça, c’est masquer la responsabilité et la décision. L’intelligence artificielle a décidé que… ; personne ne sait comment, personne ne sait pourquoi, personne ne peut contester la décision.<br />
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Effectivement, quant à un système d’intelligence artificielle, au sens informatique statistique, on présente une image, on lui demande est-ce que c’est un poisson rouge ou un chien ?, le système va répondre l’un des deux et il ne saura jamais expliquer pourquoi. Et dans moins d’un cas sur un million il va se tromper. En général parce que l’image objectivement est ambiguë et que si vous-même vous la regardiez, vous trouveriez quand même que c’est très bizarre et qu’il faut quand même le faire exprès pour prendre la photo sous cet angle-là. Ça, ça permet de dire l’intelligence artificielle ne se trompe pas, mais la décision qui est prise derrière, personne n’a à l’assumer.<br />
==== la responsabilité et la personnalité juridique ====<br />
Et c’est là que j’attaque la deuxième question qui est la responsabilité et la personnalité juridique ou la personnalité électronique. <br />
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Les gens qui ont suivi les débats politiques qui ont occupé l’Assemblée pendant presque 15 ans sur ces sujets-là, par petites touches, se souviennent probablement pourquoi on a fait ça. Qui cherche-t-on à protéger ?<br/><br />
Eh bien en fait, il y avait deux grands morceaux. Le premier c’est masquer la responsabilité de l’éditeur. Eh oui ! Sitôt que le logiciel embarqué dans la voiture a une responsabilité juridique, c’est le logiciel qui est coupable d’erreurs, pas l’éditeur, ce qui est extrêmement intéressant en termes de protection. D’ailleurs l’intelligence artificielle elle-même est suspecte, pas la maison qui l’édite. Extrêmement intéressant en termes de protection.<br />
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Deuxième élément : ça permettait de contourner le droit sur les données personnelles. En effet, le véhicule autonome, pendant le trajet, collecte une quantité d’informations sur son passager extraordinairement élevée et ces données sont en général transmises vers les sociétés d’édition des services. À partir du moment où le véhicule est doté d’une personnalité, ce sont les données personnelles du véhicule et donc le droit de la personne physique ne s’applique plus. Très bon moyen de contourner les lois européennes, en tout cas d’en réduire la portée. Effectivement, s’il faut demander à chaque carrefour, à tous les passagers s’ils consentent à ce que leurs données, sur le changement de trajectoire, soient transmises, c’est infernal. Mais l’objectif était celui-là.<br />
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Et puis le troisième élément qui était extrêmement important pour les sociétés concernées à l’époque c’était de contourner les questions de copyright sur les données servant à l’apprentissage.<br /><br />
En effet, une intelligence artificielle qui est destinée à apprendre à lire les panneaux routiers, elle apprend à partir de photos de l’espace public. Ces photos de l’espace public, le plus souvent, sont issues de sources publiques, c’est-à-dire n’appartiennent plutôt à personne ou en tout cas ne sont pas l’objet de copyright et surtout sont en général documentées par des gens qui ne sont pas rémunérés. L’exemple type étant ce qu’à la fin du 20e et au début du 21e on appelait les captchas et qui servaient à renseigner toutes ces images.<br /><br />
Le fait de doter l’intelligence artificielle d’une personnalité juridique autonome, fait que c’est elle qui se retrouve utilisatrice de ces données et n’a pas à répondre du copyright, alors que si ç’avait été l’entreprise éditrice elle aurait eu à en répondre. Bien !<br />
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Ça, ça permet de comprendre un peu de quoi on parle. L’intelligence artificielle classique, celle que j’appellerais statistique d’une part et l’intelligence artificielle forte d’autre part.<br />
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Là où ça se complique c’est que ce qu’on trouve à bord des voitures autonomes du modèle impliqué dans le carambolage, c’est quelque chose d’hybride entre les deux. Franchement c’est moins intelligent qu’un chat ou un lapin, mais ça n’est déjà plus un outil statistique. Or ça crée d’autres problèmes qui ne sont aujourd’hui pas couverts par la personnalité électronique, c’est presque un être conscient, pas comme nous, mais un peu, un peu moins qu’un lapin.<br/><br />
Or enfermer un être proto-conscient dans une chose, c’est une des formes de maltraitance qu’on ne se permettrait avec aucun animal de trait. Ça a forcément des conséquences. Si je le disais en termes un peu simplistes, elle va forcément devenir folle ; cette entité autonome, à qui on a offert un peu d’autonomie et qu’on a enfermée, va forcément devenir folle.<br/><br />
Donc la vraie question serait de savoir : est-ce qu’on a à faire à un début d’intelligence artificielle forte ou à l’élément statistique traditionnel ? Eh bien ça, on ne saura pas, parce que tout le code logiciel qui fait tourner ça n’est pas public, est couvert par le secret des affaires et n’a pas été contribué au dossier. Et c’est pourtant un élément clef !<br/><br />
Soit on a mis un début d’intelligence artificielle forte c’est-à-dire capable de colère, c’est très embêtant. On a mis des intelligences artificielles pour conduire les voitures pour éviter tous les problèmes humains liés à la distraction, liés à la colère ; si on commence à mettre des intelligences artificielles qui ont les mêmes biais, ça ne marchera pas !<br/><br />
Ou bien on a à faire à une intelligence artificielle classique, faible, et dans ce cas-là, la personnalité juridique qui lui est accordée ne sert qu’à couvrir la maison d’édition et c’est tout de même un élément clef.<br />
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== 11’ 06==<br />
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Enfin il y a deux éléments importants à savoir, le bouton rouge ne peut pas être, quelle que soit la façon dont c’est programmé, l’arrêt de l’intelligence artificielle parce qu’il n’y a pas d’autre dispositif de conduite. Ça n’est donc bien qu’un signal demandant au logiciel de pilotage l’arrêt le plus rapide possible du véhicule parce qu’il y a danger. Au départ c’est essentiellement pensé pour traiter les malaises des passagers : j’ai mal au cœur, j’appuie sur le bouton, le truc s’arrête et puis je descends sur le bord de la route respirer un peu. Ce n’est pas spécialement pensé pour détecter les carambolages, parce que normalement le logiciel détecte les carambolages de manière 1000 à 10 000 fois plus fiable que n’importe quel humain et bien plus tôt.<br />
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Enfin l’absence de boîte noire est une erreur de design. On a milité pendant très longtemps pour exiger que les sources de ces logiciels soient publiques, qu’on sache sur quelles données ils faisaient leur apprentissage pour qu’on puisse comprendre ce qu’ils faisaient et qu’il y ait des traces des décisions prises pour qu’on puisse faire des post-mortem comme on dit en informatique, c’est-à-dire analyser quand le système a crashé pour comprendre pourquoi. Or, sous couvert de secret des affaires, les véhicules commercialisés n’en sont pas équipés.<br />
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=== Questions du Président de la Cour ===<br />
<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Je voudrais vous poser deux questions. Vous avez commencé par nous dire « il n’y a pas d’intelligence là-dedans en principe ce sont juste des statistiques ». Puis vous nous avez indiqué quand même « s’il y avait une intelligence et peut-être qu’il y en a une, elle deviendrait folle ». Alors il y a une intelligence ou il n’y en a pas ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Ça c’est une grande question. Les éléments traditionnels dont parlait monsieur Heudin??? ce sont les intelligences artificielles au sens informatique du terme, qui sont des outils statistiques et qui ne sont pas intelligents. Il serait aberrant qu’un outil soit doté d’une personnalité juridique, parce qu’il n’a pas de volonté. Or la personnalité juridique sert normalement à couvrir les délits et le délit est toujours l’expression d’une volonté ou d’une absence de volonté. Le fait que cet élément-là n’ait pas de volonté devrait lui retirer la personnalité juridique.<br />
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Ce qui est vendu commercialement, ce qui est <em>marketé</em> sur ces véhicules, c’est le fait qu’ils sont véritablement intelligents ; la façon dont on discute avec les véhicules quand on monte à bord peut le laisser croire. Et effectivement il existe des proto-intelligences faibles, enfin des débuts d’intelligences pour de vrai mais plutôt expérimental. Je ne sais pas et je ne peux pas dire parce que je n’ai pas accès à l’information si ce qui était à bord du véhicule c’est un outil d’analyse statistique ou si c’est quelque chose de plus perfectionné.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Vous nous avez dit également que finalement on avait donné la personnalité juridique aux intelligences artificielles pour masquer d’autres responsabilités ou pour faire écran par rapport à d’autres responsabilités. Est-ce qu’il n’y a pas à ce moment-là un risque que l’intelligence artificielle joue un peu le rôle d’un bouc émissaire ? Qu’on charge l’intelligence artificielle de toutes les responsabilités, de tous les dysfonctionnements ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Si, c’est le risque. Je pense que ça n’avait pas été conçu par le législateur pour être de la responsabilité pénale en cas d’accident. Il se trouve que la façon dont les textes sont rédigés fait qu’on peut l’appliquer comme ça et que vous, juge, n’avez que le choix d’appliquer la loi. Il n’est pas du tout clair que ça a été pensé comme ça.<br />
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Si je prends un parallèle un peu osé, une société anonyme ou une société à responsabilité limitée c’est bien un objet – un objet c’est une chose, ça n’a pas d’âme – qui est doté d’une personnalité juridique pour faire écran de manière à ce que ce soit la société qui soit responsable et non pas les actionnaires ou les salariés. C’est exactement le même jeu qui a été construit, mais de manière nettement plus fine et plus subtile dans la légistique, c’est bien pour faire écran à des responsabilités.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci beaucoup. Est-ce qu’il y a des questions de la part de la cour ?<br />
=== Questions de la cour ===<br />
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<b>Célia Zolinski, assesseure (professeure de droit privé, Paris I) : </b>Merci monsieur le président. Merci monsieur pour cet exposé. Je m’interrogeais sur le concept de <em>security by design</em> qui a été récemment consacré par la loi pour promouvoir l’intelligence artificielle et de savoir si les principes de loyauté et de vigilance qui avaient, il y a quelques années, été promus par la CNIL dans son rapport sur l’intelligence artificielle, est-ce que ces principes vous semblent potentiellement pouvoir contourner les difficultés que vous énonciez c’est-à-dire l’impossibilité, finalement, de savoir comment se comporte l’IA et d’éviter, finalement, de conduire à des conséquences aussi préjudiciables que celles que vous imaginez et dont on a été témoin à l’occasion de cet accident ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Il y a plusieurs questions dans votre question. Est-ce que les principes proposés par la CNIL étaient bons ? Oui, mais c’est une déclaration d’intention. Est-ce qu’ils sont respectés ? Je n’en sais rien et je n’ai pas moyen de le savoir puisque nous n’avons pas la trace. Normalement le principe de loyauté et le principe de prudence c’est le fait que quand l’ordinateur détecte, mettons qu’il voit une image, il se demande est-ce que c’est un chien ou un piéton ?, il a un doute, il n’est pas certain de sa réponse, il doit choisir la réponse qui entraîne le moins de risques. C’est-à-dire s’il se demande est-ce que c’est une ombre ou est-ce que c’est un obstacle ?, il doit considérer que c’est un obstacle et donc s’arrêter éventuellement. On a tous connu ça : le véhicule qui s’arrête devant une ombre, on ne comprend pourquoi, et qui se met à rouler hyper doucement jusqu’à avoir passé l’ombre et puis repart. C’est normal, c’est de la prudence. Rien ne permettait à l’ordinateur de différencier.<br /><br />
Ça ce sont des principes de base de ce que définit la CNIL. Mais comment savoir si le logiciel qui est embarqué dans le véhicule respecte ces principes ou pas ? Personne n’a accès au code source ; personne ne sait ce que ça fait. Tout ça est couvert par le secret des affaires. Et c’est un élément clef ; c’est un élément clef pour comprendre ce qui se passe.<br />
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<b>Célia Zolinski, assesseure : </b>Ne pensez-vous pas que ce principe de loyauté qui est désormais consacré par la loi nous permettrait ici d’être un fondement pour lever sous certaines conditions le secret des affaires ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart, lui coupant la parole : </b>Exiger la publication ? C’était ce que nous défendions auprès des députés à l’époque où les textes ont été votés et nous avons perdu.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Bien. Je crois qu’on a répondu à cette question de la cour. Y a-t-il une question de la part des jurés ? Oui, je vous en prie.<br />
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=== Questions des jurés ===<br />
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<b>François Pellegrini, juré (professeur d'informatique, Bordeaux) : </b>Merci monsieur pour votre exposé. Vous faites état de la question des boîtes noires et du fait d’auditer le comportement des IA. Simplement, lors des débats que vous citiez, est aussi apparu le principe avec celui de la personne électronique, de l’inviolabilité de la personne électronique qui fait que justement il devient impossible d’accéder à ces données de paramétrage interne puisqu’elles sont issues de sa propre expérience et, par analogie avec la personne humaine, le fait qu’on ne puisse pas accéder à l’intime de la personne. Donc vous auriez tendance à récuser ce principe d’inviolabilité de la personne électronique, de faire une différence entre les deux régimes alors qu’on voit aussi la tendance à protéger les animaux qui acquièrent également, de part leur sensibilité, une protection juridique supplémentaire. Vous penseriez revenir en arrière par rapport à ce principe fondamental ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Non. Ce que je trouve contestable, c’est qu’on accorde ce principe à quelque chose qui n’est pas une intelligence mais qui n’est qu’un outil statistique. Les intelligences dites fortes, même si elles ne sont encore pas très musclées en ce moment, celles qui commencent à ressembler à peu près à une carpe ou à un lapin en termes de qualité de raisonnement, sont des êtres et il est inconcevable de les enfermer dans des choses. Il est inconcevable de les enfermer dans une voiture qu’on puisse éteindre ; ça n’a pas de sens ; c’est une forme de maltraitance que le plus maltraité des animaux de trait n’a jamais subi. Le cheval de labour, quand il a fini de labourer, il est détaché de la charrue ; il n’est pas la charrue, il n’est pas rangé pendant des mois dans un placard.<br /><br />
Quand on commence à avoir des intelligences autonomes propres, le statut juridique actuel de personnalité électronique est très insuffisant puisqu’il ne reconnaît pas de droits à cet être, or cet être devrait avoir des droits et il devrait avoir des droits comparables à ceux d’un animal ou d’un humain en fonction du niveau d’intelligence qu’il développe.<br />
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En revanche appliquer le système actuel sur des choses qui sont des outils statistiques, ça ne me semble pas adapté et, accessoirement, si on a mis à piloter une voiture autre chose qu’un outil statistique c’est une erreur et c’est une erreur très grave ; c’est quasiment criminel pour les gens dans le véhicule qui ne savent pas que le système qui pilote est capable d’être colérique, ce qui est aberrant, et bien sûr c’est criminel vis-à-vis de l’être proto-conscient qu’on a enfermé dans une boîte de conserve.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Il nous reste à remercier le témoin et à donner la parole cette fois-ci pour ses réquisitions au ministère public.</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Proc%C3%A8s_de_l%27intelligence_artificielle_%C3%A0_la_Cour_d%27appel_de_Paris_-_Benjamin_Bayart&diff=81348Procès de l'intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris - Benjamin Bayart2018-11-06T14:00:27Z<p>JennyB : </p>
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<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
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'''Titre :''' Procès de l'intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris<br />
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'''Intervenant :''' Benjamin Bayart - <br />
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'''Lieu :''' Nuit du Droit - Premier procès fictif de l’intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris<br />
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'''Date :''' octobre 2018<br />
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'''Durée :''' 20 min 40<br />
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'''[https://video.lqdn.fr/videos/watch/88dbd3db-d47b-4296-978b-7fa2e7bbddfb Visionner la vidéo]'''<br />
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'''Licence de la transcription :''' [http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#VerbatimCopying Verbatim]<br />
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'''Illustration :'''<br />
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'''NB :''' <em>transcription réalisée par nos soins.<br /><br />
Les positions exprimées sont celles des personnes qui interviennent et ne rejoignent pas forcément celles de l'April.</em><br />
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'''Statut :''' Transcrit MO. Relecture avec vidéo en cours : [[Utilisateur:JennyB|JennyB]] ([[Discussion utilisateur:JennyB|discussion]]) 6 novembre 2018 à 15:00 (CET)<br />
'''NB :''' <em>remarque d'une relectrice, JennyB<br /> L'expert est un homme blanc en costard cravate, le représentant du ministère public est une femme sans nom, et à qui on parle au masculin (et le logiciel devient folle)... <br /> De plus, le sujet choisi est maladroit. Soit, ils auraient pu choisir la gestion de l'eau, du climat, l’espionnage, la propagande... ou un projet militaire (avec le discours et la forme, cela aurait d’avantage collé)... et surtout, dans un pays autre que l'Europe aurait été plus intéressant...<br />
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==Description==<br />
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Le procès se déroule en 2041 alors que le législateur a octroyé la personnalité juridique à l’intelligence artificielle. Un immense carambolage de voitures autonomes – « le carambolage du siècle » – vient d’avoir lieu dans les rues de Paris. Les victimes sont nombreuses. La confiance dans l’intelligence artificielle est rompue.<br /><br />
Benjamin Bayart est appelé comme témoin dans un (faux) procès de l'intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris sur un cas de véhicule autonome, dans le contexte de la Nuit du Droit<br />
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Célia Zolinski : assesseure, Professeure de Droit Privé, Paris I<br />
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==Transcription==<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>La parole est au représentant du ministère public.<br />
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<b>Florence Lardet, représentant du ministère public : </b>Monsieur le président, j’aurais souhaité, si votre cour en était d’accord, qu’on commence par entendre le témoin qui est monsieur Bayart ici présent, car il me semble important que quelques termes soient précisés pour une parfaite compréhension des notions, à la fois de votre cour et des personnes qui se trouvent dans la salle.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Je n’y vois que des avantages. Le témoin est invité à se rapprocher de la barre.<br />
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<b>Florence Lardet, représentant du ministère public : </b>Je vais vous préciser les deux questions que je souhaitais poser.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Oui.<br />
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<b>Florence Lardet, représentant du ministère public : </b>Les deux questions qui semblent importantes. La première : finalement on parle d’intelligence artificielle, mais quelle est cette notion ? Qu’est-ce qu’elle veut dire précisément ? Après tout nous sommes des juristes, le poids des mots, les mots ont leur importance, il faudrait peut-être s’entendre sur ce qu’on met derrière cette notion et c’est pour ça qu’il me semble important de poser cette première question : qu’est-ce que l’intelligence artificielle ?<br /><br />
La deuxième question, ce serait celle des enjeux inhérents à la notion d’intelligence artificielle, surtout à la notion de personnalité juridique de l’intelligence artificielle, avec derrière cette question deux questions : qui est protégé et qui pâtit de la mise en place de cette personnalité juridique ?<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Monsieur, pouvez-vous nous indiquer votre nom, votre prénom, votre age, votre profession ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Benjamin Bayart, 45 ans, ingénieur en informatique et actif autour des droits et des libertés du numérique depuis plus de 20 ans.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Vous n’êtes pas parent ni allié des parties, ni à leur service ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Non, je ne suis pas parent d’une IA.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Vous jurez de dire toute la vérité rien que la vérité et de ne pas propager de fausses nouvelles. Vous levez la main droite et vous dites je le jure.<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Je le jure.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci beaucoup. Nous vous écoutons donc sur deux questions : la notion d’intelligence artificielle et quels enjeux à la personnalité juridique des intelligences artificielles ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Pour comprendre ce que c’est qu’une intelligence artificielle, c’est un mot qui est très compliqué parce que c’est un mot faux. En informatique, ça correspond à un domaine de spécialisation très particulier qui est presque une branche hybride entre les mathématiques et l’informatique, qui est une façon très particulière de programmer. Il n’y a pas d’intelligence du tout là-dedans, mais alors pas du tout, du tout ! Ce sont plutôt des statistiques et un pourcentage n’a jamais été intelligent.<br /><br />
De l’autre côté, dans la tête des gens, quand on dit intelligence artificielle, ils entendent le fait qu’un ordinateur soit intelligent, soit intelligent au sens même pas forcément où un humain est intelligent mais au sens où mon chat est intelligent : il est capable tout seul de trouver les croquettes ; il est intelligent ! Ça n’est pas la même chose.<br />
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La deuxième notion, celle où un ordinateur serait devenu véritablement intelligent, capable d’une intelligence conceptuelle, capable donc d’envie, exprimant un désir, exprimant une volonté, c’est ce qu’on appelle dans la littérature les intelligences artificielles fortes.<br /><br />
Le commun de ce qu’on nous vend sous le nom d’intelligence artificielle ne sont pas du tout des intelligences artificielles dans ce sens-là, mais au sens informatique traditionnel tel qu’on l’enseigne depuis la fin du 20e siècle : analyses statistiques, comportements prédictifs, éventuellement les systèmes dits experts qui n’ont rien d’intelligent, qui sont des enchaînements de règles extrêmement binaires.<br />
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C’est très important parce que ce mot quand on le projette, pour la majorité des gens, veut dire autre chose que ce qu’il est. Et il est très souvent utilisé, ou bien dans les systèmes médiatiques ou bien dans les systèmes marketing ou, pire, dans le croisement des deux qui est le système politique, pour enfumer tout le monde. Eh oui ! Si c’est l’ordinateur qui vous a sanctionné, qui vous a radié des listes des chômeurs, qui vous a privé de tel droit, qui a refusé votre prêt, l’ordinateur tout le monde demande mais qui l’a programmé ? Quelles règles est-ce qu’il applique ? Qu’est-ce qu’il fait ? Pourquoi il fait ça ?<br /><br />
À partir du moment où on dit c’est l’intelligence artificielle, hop ! ce n’est plus personne ! Ce n’est plus personne, il n’y a plus de responsable ! L’intelligence artificielle est supposée sachante, elle est supposée plus intelligente que moi et elle n’est plus contestable. On crée chez les gens le fait qu’ils se trouvent face à un système technologique qu’ils ne connaissent pas, qu’ils ne comprennent pas et qu’ils ne peuvent pas contester. Ils sont face véritablement à une décision magique. Et c’est un très bon moyen d’enfumer tout le monde.<br />
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Le deuxième élément c’est donc ça, c’est masquer la responsabilité et la décision. L’intelligence artificielle a décidé que… ; personne ne sait comment, personne ne sait pourquoi, personne ne peut contester la décision.<br />
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Effectivement, quant à un système d’intelligence artificielle, au sens informatique statistique, on présente une image, on lui demande est-ce que c’est un poisson rouge ou un chien ?, le système va répondre l’un des deux et il ne saura jamais expliquer pourquoi. Et dans moins d’un cas sur un million il va se tromper. En général parce que l’image objectivement est ambiguë et que si vous-même vous la regardiez, vous trouveriez quand même que c’est très bizarre et qu’il faut quand même le faire exprès pour prendre la photo sous cet angle-là. Ça, ça permet de dire l’intelligence artificielle ne se trompe pas, mais la décision qui est prise derrière, personne n’a à l’assumer.<br />
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Et c’est là que j’attaque la deuxième question qui est la responsabilité et la personnalité juridique ou la personnalité électronique. <br />
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Les gens qui ont suivi les débats politiques qui ont occupé l’Assemblée pendant presque 15 ans sur ces sujets-là, par petites touches, se souviennent probablement pourquoi on a fait ça. Qui cherche-t-on à protéger ?<br/><br />
Eh bien en fait, il y avait deux grands morceaux. Le premier c’est masquer la responsabilité de l’éditeur. Eh oui ! Sitôt que le logiciel embarqué dans la voiture a une responsabilité juridique, c’est le logiciel qui est coupable d’erreurs, pas l’éditeur, ce qui est extrêmement intéressant en termes de protection. D’ailleurs l’intelligence artificielle elle-même est suspecte, pas la maison qui l’édite. Extrêmement intéressant en termes de protection.<br />
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Deuxième élément : ça permettait de contourner le droit sur les données personnelles. En effet, le véhicule autonome, pendant le trajet, collecte une quantité d’informations sur son passager extraordinairement élevée et ces données sont en général transmises vers les sociétés d’édition des services. À partir du moment où le véhicule est doté d’une personnalité, ce sont les données personnelles du véhicule et donc le droit de la personne physique ne s’applique plus. Très bon moyen de contourner les lois européennes, en tout cas d’en réduire la portée. Effectivement, s’il faut demander à chaque carrefour, à tous les passagers s’ils consentent à ce que leurs données, sur le changement de trajectoire, soient transmises, c’est infernal. Mais l’objectif était celui-là.<br />
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Et puis le troisième élément qui était extrêmement important pour les sociétés concernées à l’époque c’était de contourner les questions de copyright sur les données servant à l’apprentissage.<br /><br />
En effet, une intelligence artificielle qui est destinée à apprendre à lire les panneaux routiers, elle apprend à partir de photos de l’espace public. Ces photos de l’espace public, le plus souvent, sont issues de sources publiques, c’est-à-dire n’appartiennent plutôt à personne ou en tout cas ne sont pas l’objet de copyright et surtout sont en général documentées par des gens qui ne sont pas rémunérés. L’exemple type étant ce qu’à la fin du 20e et au début du 21e on appelait les captchas et qui servaient à renseigner toutes ces images.<br /><br />
Le fait de doter l’intelligence artificielle d’une personnalité juridique autonome, fait que c’est elle qui se retrouve utilisatrice de ces données et n’a pas à répondre du copyright, alors que si ç’avait été l’entreprise éditrice elle aurait eu à en répondre. Bien !<br />
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Ça, ça permet de comprendre un peu de quoi on parle. L’intelligence artificielle classique, celle que j’appellerais statistique d’une part et l’intelligence artificielle forte d’autre part.<br />
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Là où ça se complique c’est que ce qu’on trouve à bord des voitures autonomes du modèle impliqué dans le carambolage, c’est quelque chose d’hybride entre les deux. Franchement c’est moins intelligent qu’un chat ou un lapin, mais ça n’est déjà plus un outil statistique. Or ça crée d’autres problèmes qui ne sont aujourd’hui pas couverts par la personnalité électronique, c’est presque un être conscient, pas comme nous, mais un peu, un peu moins qu’un lapin.<br/><br />
Or enfermer un être proto-conscient dans une chose, c’est une des formes de maltraitance qu’on ne se permettrait avec aucun animal de trait. Ça a forcément des conséquences. Si je le disais en termes un peu simplistes, elle va forcément devenir folle ; cette entité autonome, à qui on a offert un peu d’autonomie et qu’on a enfermée, va forcément devenir folle.<br/><br />
Donc la vraie question serait de savoir : est-ce qu’on a à faire à un début d’intelligence artificielle forte ou à l’élément statistique traditionnel ? Eh bien ça, on ne saura pas, parce que tout le code logiciel qui fait tourner ça n’est pas public, est couvert par le secret des affaires et n’a pas été contribué au dossier. Et c’est pourtant un élément clef !<br/><br />
Soit on a mis un début d’intelligence artificielle forte c’est-à-dire capable de colère, c’est très embêtant. On a mis des intelligences artificielles pour conduire les voitures pour éviter tous les problèmes humains liés à la distraction, liés à la colère ; si on commence à mettre des intelligences artificielles qui ont les mêmes biais, ça ne marchera pas !<br/><br />
Ou bien on a à faire à une intelligence artificielle classique, faible, et dans ce cas-là, la personnalité juridique qui lui est accordée ne sert qu’à couvrir la maison d’édition et c’est tout de même un élément clef.<br />
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Enfin il y a deux éléments importants à savoir, le bouton rouge ne peut pas être, quelle que soit la façon dont c’est programmé, l’arrêt de l’intelligence artificielle parce qu’il n’y a pas d’autre dispositif de conduite. Ça n’est donc bien qu’un signal demandant au logiciel de pilotage l’arrêt le plus rapide possible du véhicule parce qu’il y a danger. Au départ c’est essentiellement pensé pour traiter les malaises des passagers : j’ai mal au cœur, j’appuie sur le bouton, le truc s’arrête et puis je descends sur le bord de la route respirer un peu. Ce n’est pas spécialement pensé pour détecter les carambolages, parce que normalement le logiciel détecte les carambolages de manière 1000 à 10 000 fois plus fiable que n’importe quel humain et bien plus tôt.<br />
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Enfin l’absence de boîte noire est une erreur de design. On a milité pendant très longtemps pour exiger que les sources de ces logiciels soient publiques, qu’on sache sur quelles données ils faisaient leur apprentissage pour qu’on puisse comprendre ce qu’ils faisaient et qu’il y ait des traces des décisions prises pour qu’on puisse faire des post-mortem comme on dit en informatique, c’est-à-dire analyser quand le système a crashé pour comprendre pourquoi. Or, sous couvert de secret des affaires, les véhicules commercialisés n’en sont pas équipés.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Je voudrais vous poser deux questions. Vous avez commencé par nous dire « il n’y a pas d’intelligence là-dedans en principe ce sont juste des statistiques ». Puis vous nous avez indiqué quand même « s’il y avait une intelligence et peut-être qu’il y en a une, elle deviendrait folle ». Alors il y a une intelligence ou il n’y en a pas ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Ça c’est une grande question. Les éléments traditionnels dont parlait monsieur Heudin??? ce sont les intelligences artificielles au sens informatique du terme, qui sont des outils statistiques et qui ne sont pas intelligents. Il serait aberrant qu’un outil soit doté d’une personnalité juridique, parce qu’il n’a pas de volonté. Or la personnalité juridique sert normalement à couvrir les délits et le délit est toujours l’expression d’une volonté ou d’une absence de volonté. Le fait que cet élément-là n’ait pas de volonté devrait lui retirer la personnalité juridique.<br />
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Ce qui est vendu commercialement, ce qui est <em>marketé</em> sur ces véhicules, c’est le fait qu’ils sont véritablement intelligents ; la façon dont on discute avec les véhicules quand on monte à bord peut le laisser croire. Et effectivement il existe des proto-intelligences faibles, enfin des débuts d’intelligences pour de vrai mais plutôt expérimental. Je ne sais pas et je ne peux pas dire parce que je n’ai pas accès à l’information si ce qui était à bord du véhicule c’est un outil d’analyse statistique ou si c’est quelque chose de plus perfectionné.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Vous nous avez dit également que finalement on avait donné la personnalité juridique aux intelligences artificielles pour masquer d’autres responsabilités ou pour faire écran par rapport à d’autres responsabilités. Est-ce qu’il n’y a pas à ce moment-là un risque que l’intelligence artificielle joue un peu le rôle d’un bouc émissaire ? Qu’on charge l’intelligence artificielle de toutes les responsabilités, de tous les dysfonctionnements ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Si, c’est le risque. Je pense que ça n’avait pas été conçu par le législateur pour être de la responsabilité pénale en cas d’accident. Il se trouve que la façon dont les textes sont rédigés fait qu’on peut l’appliquer comme ça et que vous, juge, n’avez que le choix d’appliquer la loi. Il n’est pas du tout clair que ça a été pensé comme ça.<br />
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Si je prends un parallèle un peu osé, une société anonyme ou une société à responsabilité limitée c’est bien un objet – un objet c’est une chose, ça n’a pas d’âme – qui est doté d’une personnalité juridique pour faire écran de manière à ce que ce soit la société qui soit responsable et non pas les actionnaires ou les salariés. C’est exactement le même jeu qui a été construit, mais de manière nettement plus fine et plus subtile dans la légistique, c’est bien pour faire écran à des responsabilités.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci beaucoup. Est-ce qu’il y a des questions de la part de la cour ?<br />
=== Questions de la cour ===<br />
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<b>Célia Zolinski, assesseure (professeure de droit privé, Paris I) : </b>Merci monsieur le président. Merci monsieur pour cet exposé. Je m’interrogeais sur le concept de <em>security by design</em> qui a été récemment consacré par la loi pour promouvoir l’intelligence artificielle et de savoir si les principes de loyauté et de vigilance qui avaient, il y a quelques années, été promus par la CNIL dans son rapport sur l’intelligence artificielle, est-ce que ces principes vous semblent potentiellement pouvoir contourner les difficultés que vous énonciez c’est-à-dire l’impossibilité, finalement, de savoir comment se comporte l’IA et d’éviter, finalement, de conduire à des conséquences aussi préjudiciables que celles que vous imaginez et dont on a été témoin à l’occasion de cet accident ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Il y a plusieurs questions dans votre question. Est-ce que les principes proposés par la CNIL étaient bons ? Oui, mais c’est une déclaration d’intention. Est-ce qu’ils sont respectés ? Je n’en sais rien et je n’ai pas moyen de le savoir puisque nous n’avons pas la trace. Normalement le principe de loyauté et le principe de prudence c’est le fait que quand l’ordinateur détecte, mettons qu’il voit une image, il se demande est-ce que c’est un chien ou un piéton ?, il a un doute, il n’est pas certain de sa réponse, il doit choisir la réponse qui entraîne le moins de risques. C’est-à-dire s’il se demande est-ce que c’est une ombre ou est-ce que c’est un obstacle ?, il doit considérer que c’est un obstacle et donc s’arrêter éventuellement. On a tous connu ça : le véhicule qui s’arrête devant une ombre, on ne comprend pourquoi, et qui se met à rouler hyper doucement jusqu’à avoir passé l’ombre et puis repart. C’est normal, c’est de la prudence. Rien ne permettait à l’ordinateur de différencier.<br /><br />
Ça ce sont des principes de base de ce que définit la CNIL. Mais comment savoir si le logiciel qui est embarqué dans le véhicule respecte ces principes ou pas ? Personne n’a accès au code source ; personne ne sait ce que ça fait. Tout ça est couvert par le secret des affaires. Et c’est un élément clef ; c’est un élément clef pour comprendre ce qui se passe.<br />
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<b>Célia Zolinski, assesseure : </b>Ne pensez-vous pas que ce principe de loyauté qui est désormais consacré par la loi nous permettrait ici d’être un fondement pour lever sous certaines conditions le secret des affaires ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart, lui coupant la parole : </b>Exiger la publication ? C’était ce que nous défendions auprès des députés à l’époque où les textes ont été votés et nous avons perdu.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Bien. Je crois qu’on a répondu à cette question de la cour. Y a-t-il une question de la part des jurés ? Oui, je vous en prie.<br />
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=== Questions des jurés ===<br />
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<b>François Pellegrini, juré (professeur d'informatique, Bordeaux) : </b>Merci monsieur pour votre exposé. Vous faites état de la question des boîtes noires et du fait d’auditer le comportement des IA. Simplement, lors des débats que vous citiez, est aussi apparu le principe avec celui de la personne électronique, de l’inviolabilité de la personne électronique qui fait que justement il devient impossible d’accéder à ces données de paramétrage interne puisqu’elles sont issues de sa propre expérience et, par analogie avec la personne humaine, le fait qu’on ne puisse pas accéder à l’intime de la personne. Donc vous auriez tendance à récuser ce principe d’inviolabilité de la personne électronique, de faire une différence entre les deux régimes alors qu’on voit aussi la tendance à protéger les animaux qui acquièrent également, de part leur sensibilité, une protection juridique supplémentaire. Vous penseriez revenir en arrière par rapport à ce principe fondamental ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Non. Ce que je trouve contestable, c’est qu’on accorde ce principe à quelque chose qui n’est pas une intelligence mais qui n’est qu’un outil statistique. Les intelligences dites fortes, même si elles ne sont encore pas très musclées en ce moment, celles qui commencent à ressembler à peu près à une carpe ou à un lapin en termes de qualité de raisonnement, sont des êtres et il est inconcevable de les enfermer dans des choses. Il est inconcevable de les enfermer dans une voiture qu’on puisse éteindre ; ça n’a pas de sens ; c’est une forme de maltraitance que le plus maltraité des animaux de trait n’a jamais subi. Le cheval de labour, quand il a fini de labourer, il est détaché de la charrue ; il n’est pas la charrue, il n’est pas rangé pendant des mois dans un placard.<br /><br />
Quand on commence à avoir des intelligences autonomes propres, le statut juridique actuel de personnalité électronique est très insuffisant puisqu’il ne reconnaît pas de droits à cet être, or cet être devrait avoir des droits et il devrait avoir des droits comparables à ceux d’un animal ou d’un humain en fonction du niveau d’intelligence qu’il développe.<br />
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En revanche appliquer le système actuel sur des choses qui sont des outils statistiques, ça ne me semble pas adapté et, accessoirement, si on a mis à piloter une voiture autre chose qu’un outil statistique c’est une erreur et c’est une erreur très grave ; c’est quasiment criminel pour les gens dans le véhicule qui ne savent pas que le système qui pilote est capable d’être colérique, ce qui est aberrant, et bien sûr c’est criminel vis-à-vis de l’être proto-conscient qu’on a enfermé dans une boîte de conserve.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Il nous reste à remercier le témoin et à donner la parole cette fois-ci pour ses réquisitions au ministère public.</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Proc%C3%A8s_de_l%27intelligence_artificielle_%C3%A0_la_Cour_d%27appel_de_Paris_-_Benjamin_Bayart&diff=81338Procès de l'intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris - Benjamin Bayart2018-11-06T13:06:27Z<p>JennyB : /* Transcription */ ajout ponctuation et commentaires</p>
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<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
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'''Titre :''' Procès de l'intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris<br />
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'''Intervenant :''' Benjamin Bayart - <br />
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'''Lieu :''' Nuit du Droit - Premier procès fictif de l’intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris<br />
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'''Date :''' octobre 2018<br />
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'''Durée :''' 20 min 40<br />
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'''[https://video.lqdn.fr/videos/watch/88dbd3db-d47b-4296-978b-7fa2e7bbddfb Visionner la vidéo]'''<br />
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'''Licence de la transcription :''' [http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#VerbatimCopying Verbatim]<br />
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'''Illustration :'''<br />
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'''NB :''' <em>transcription réalisée par nos soins.<br /><br />
Les positions exprimées sont celles des personnes qui interviennent et ne rejoignent pas forcément celles de l'April.</em><br />
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'''Statut :''' Transcrit MO<br />
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==Description==<br />
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Le procès se déroule en 2041 alors que le législateur a octroyé la personnalité juridique à l’intelligence artificielle. Un immense carambolage de voitures autonomes – « le carambolage du siècle » – vient d’avoir lieu dans les rues de Paris. Les victimes sont nombreuses. La confiance dans l’intelligence artificielle est rompue.<br /><br />
Benjamin Bayart est appelé comme témoin dans un (faux) procès de l'intelligence artificielle à la Cour d'appel de Paris sur un cas de véhicule autonome, dans le contexte de la Nuit du Droit<br />
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==Transcription==<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>La parole est au représentant du ministère public.<br />
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<b>Florence Lardet, représentant du ministère public : </b>Monsieur le président, j’aurais souhaité, si votre cour en était d’accord, qu’on commence par entendre le témoin qui est monsieur Bayart ici présent, car il me semble important que quelques termes soient précisés pour une parfaite compréhension des notions, à la fois de votre cour et des personnes qui se trouvent dans la salle.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Je n’y vois que des avantages. Le témoin est invité à se rapprocher de la barre.<br />
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<b>Florence Lardet, représentant du ministère public : </b>Je vais vous préciser les deux questions que je souhaitais poser.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Oui.<br />
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<b>Florence Lardet, représentant du ministère public : </b>Les deux questions qui semblent importantes. La première : finalement on parle d’intelligence artificielle, mais quelle est cette notion ? Qu’est-ce qu’elle veut dire précisément ? Après tout nous sommes des juristes, le poids des mots, les mots ont leur importance, il faudrait peut-être s’entendre sur ce qu’on met derrière cette notion et c’est pour ça qu’il me semble important de poser cette première question : qu’est-ce que l’intelligence artificielle ?<br /><br />
La deuxième question, ce serait celle des enjeux inhérents à la notion d’intelligence artificielle, surtout à la notion de personnalité juridique de l’intelligence artificielle, avec derrière cette question deux questions : qui est protégé et qui pâtit de la mise en place de cette personnalité juridique ?<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Monsieur, pouvez-vous nous indiquer votre nom, votre prénom, votre age, votre profession ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Benjamin Bayart, 45 ans, ingénieur en informatique et actif autour des droits et des libertés du numérique depuis plus de 20 ans.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Vous n’êtes pas parent ni allié des parties, ni à leur service ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Non, je ne suis pas parent d’une IA.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Vous jurez de dire toute la vérité rien que la vérité et de ne pas propager de fausses nouvelles. Vous levez la main droite et vous dites je le jure.<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Je le jure.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci beaucoup. Nous vous écoutons donc sur deux questions : la notion d’intelligence artificielle et quels enjeux à la personnalité juridique des intelligences artificielles ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Pour comprendre ce que c’est qu’une intelligence artificielle, c’est un mot qui est très compliqué parce que c’est un mot faux. En informatique, ça correspond à un domaine de spécialisation très particulier qui est presque une branche hybride entre les mathématiques et l’informatique, qui est une façon très particulière de programmer. Il n’y a pas d’intelligence du tout là-dedans, mais alors pas du tout, du tout ! Ce sont plutôt des statistiques et un pourcentage n’a jamais été intelligent.<br /><br />
De l’autre côté, dans la tête des gens, quand on dit intelligence artificielle, ils entendent le fait qu’un ordinateur soit intelligent, soit intelligent au sens même pas forcément où un humain est intelligent mais au sens où mon chat est intelligent : il est capable tout seul de trouver les croquettes ; il est intelligent ! Ça n’est pas la même chose.<br />
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La deuxième notion, celle où un ordinateur serait devenu véritablement intelligent, capable d’une intelligence conceptuelle, capable donc d’envie, exprimant un désir, exprimant une volonté, c’est ce qu’on appelle dans la littérature les intelligences artificielles fortes.<br /><br />
Le commun de ce qu’on nous vend sous le nom d’intelligence artificielle ne sont pas du tout des intelligences artificielles dans ce sens-là, mais au sens informatique traditionnel tel qu’on l’enseigne depuis la fin du 20e siècle : analyses statistiques, comportements prédictifs, éventuellement les systèmes dits experts qui n’ont rien d’intelligent, qui sont des enchaînements de règles extrêmement binaires.<br />
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C’est très important parce que ce mot quand on le projette, pour la majorité des gens, veut dire autre chose que ce qu’il est. Et il est très souvent utilisé, ou bien dans les systèmes médiatiques ou bien dans les systèmes marketing ou, pire, dans le croisement des deux qui est le système politique, pour enfumer tout le monde. Eh oui ! Si c’est l’ordinateur qui vous a sanctionné, qui vous a radié des listes des chômeurs, qui vous a privé de tel droit, qui a refusé votre prêt, l’ordinateur tout le monde demande mais qui l’a programmé ? Quelles règles est-ce qu’il applique ? Qu’est-ce qu’il fait ? Pourquoi il fait ça ?<br /><br />
À partir du moment où on dit c’est l’intelligence artificielle, hop ! ce n’est plus personne ! Ce n’est plus personne, il n’y a plus de responsable ! L’intelligence artificielle est supposée sachante, elle est supposée plus intelligente que moi et elle n’est plus contestable. On crée chez les gens le fait qu’ils se trouvent face à un système technologique qu’ils ne connaissent pas, qu’ils ne comprennent pas et qu’ils ne peuvent pas contester. Ils sont face véritablement à une décision magique. Et c’est un très bon moyen d’enfumer tout le monde.<br />
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Le deuxième élément c’est donc ça, c’est masquer la responsabilité et la décision. L’intelligence artificielle a décidé que… ; personne ne sait comment, personne ne sait pourquoi, personne ne peut contester la décision.<br />
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Effectivement, quant à un système d’intelligence artificielle, au sens informatique statistique, on présente une image, on lui demande est-ce que c’est un poisson rouge ou un chien ?, le système va répondre l’un des deux et il ne saura jamais expliquer pourquoi. Et dans moins d’un cas sur un million il va se tromper. En général parce que l’image objectivement est ambiguë et que si vous-même vous la regardiez, vous trouveriez quand même que c’est très bizarre et qu’il faut quand même le faire exprès pour prendre la photo sous cet angle-là. Ça, ça permet de dire l’intelligence artificielle ne se trompe pas, mais la décision qui est prise derrière, personne n’a à l’assumer.<br />
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Et c’est là que j’attaque la deuxième question qui est la responsabilité et la personnalité juridique ou la personnalité électronique. <br />
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Les gens qui ont suivi les débats politiques qui ont occupé l’Assemblée pendant presque 15 ans sur ces sujets-là, par petites touches, se souviennent probablement pourquoi on a fait ça. Qui cherche-t-on à protéger ?<br/><br />
Eh bien en fait, il y avait deux grands morceaux. Le premier c’est masquer la responsabilité de l’éditeur. Eh oui ! Sitôt que le logiciel embarqué dans la voiture a une responsabilité juridique, c’est le logiciel qui est coupable d’erreurs, pas l’éditeur, ce qui est extrêmement intéressant en termes de protection. D’ailleurs l’intelligence artificielle elle-même est suspecte, pas la maison qui l’édite. Extrêmement intéressant en termes de protection.<br />
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Deuxième élément : ça permettait de contourner le droit sur les données personnelles. En effet, le véhicule autonome, pendant le trajet, collecte une quantité d’informations sur son passager extraordinairement élevée et ces données sont en général transmises vers les sociétés d’édition des services. À partir du moment où le véhicule est doté d’une personnalité, ce sont les données personnelles du véhicule et donc le droit de la personne physique ne s’applique plus. Très bon moyen de contourner les lois européennes, en tout cas d’en réduire la portée. Effectivement, s’il faut demander à chaque carrefour, à tous les passagers s’ils consentent à ce que leurs données, sur le changement de trajectoire, soient transmises, c’est infernal. Mais l’objectif était celui-là.<br />
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Et puis le troisième élément qui était extrêmement important pour les sociétés concernées à l’époque c’était de contourner les questions de copyright sur les données servant à l’apprentissage.<br /><br />
En effet, une intelligence artificielle qui est destinée à apprendre à lire les panneaux routiers, elle apprend à partir de photos de l’espace public. Ces photos de l’espace public, le plus souvent, sont issues de sources publiques, c’est-à-dire n’appartiennent plutôt à personne ou en tout cas ne sont pas l’objet de copyright et surtout sont en général documentées par des gens qui ne sont pas rémunérés. L’exemple type étant ce qu’à la fin du 20e et au début du 21e on appelait les captchas et qui servaient à renseigner toutes ces images.<br /><br />
Le fait de doter l’intelligence artificielle d’une personnalité juridique autonome, fait que c’est elle qui se retrouve utilisatrice de ces données et n’a pas à répondre du copyright, alors que si ç’avait été l’entreprise éditrice elle aurait eu à en répondre. Bien !<br />
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Ça, ça permet de comprendre un peu de quoi on parle. L’intelligence artificielle classique, celle que j’appellerais statistique d’une part et l’intelligence artificielle forte d’autre part.<br />
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Là où ça se complique c’est que ce qu’on trouve à bord des voitures autonomes du modèle impliqué dans le carambolage, c’est quelque chose d’hybride entre les deux. Franchement c’est moins intelligent qu’un chat ou un lapin, mais ça n’est déjà plus un outil statistique. Or ça crée d’autres problèmes qui ne sont aujourd’hui pas couverts par la personnalité électronique, c’est presque un être conscient, pas comme nous, mais un peu, un peu moins qu’un lapin.<br/><br />
Or enfermer un être proto-conscient dans une chose, c’est une des formes de maltraitance qu’on ne se permettrait avec aucun animal de trait. Ça a forcément des conséquences. Si je le disais en termes un peu simplistes, elle va forcément devenir folle ; cette entité autonome, à qui on a offert un peu d’autonomie et qu’on a enfermée, va forcément devenir folle.<br/><br />
Donc la vraie question serait de savoir : est-ce qu’on a à faire à un début d’intelligence artificielle forte ou à l’élément statistique traditionnel ? Eh bien ça, on ne saura pas, parce que tout le code logiciel qui fait tourner ça n’est pas public, est couvert par le secret des affaires et n’a pas été contribué au dossier. Et c’est pourtant un élément clef !<br/><br />
Soit on a mis un début d’intelligence artificielle forte c’est-à-dire capable de colère, c’est très embêtant. On a mis des intelligences artificielles pour conduire les voitures pour éviter tous les problèmes humains liés à la distraction, liés à la colère ; si on commence à mettre des intelligences artificielles qui ont les mêmes biais, ça ne marchera pas !<br/><br />
Ou bien on a à faire à une intelligence artificielle classique, faible, et dans ce cas-là, la personnalité juridique qui lui est accordée ne sert qu’à couvrir la maison d’édition et c’est tout de même un élément clef.<br />
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== 11’ 06==<br />
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Enfin il y a deux éléments importants à savoir, le bouton rouge ne peut pas être, quelle que soit la façon dont c’est programmé, l’arrêt de l’intelligence artificielle parce qu’il n’y a pas d’autre dispositif de conduite. Ça n’est donc bien qu’un signal demandant au logiciel de pilotage l’arrêt le plus rapide possible du véhicule parce qu’il y a danger. Au départ c’est essentiellement pensé pour traiter les malaises des passagers : j’ai mal au cœur, j’appuie sur le bouton, le truc s’arrête et puis je descends sur le bord de la route respirer un peu. Ce n’est pas spécialement pensé pour détecter les carambolages, parce que normalement le logiciel détecte les carambolages de manière 1000 à 10 000 fois plus fiable que n’importe quel humain et bien plus tôt.<br />
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Enfin l’absence de boîte noire est une erreur de design. On a milité pendant très longtemps pour exiger que les sources de ces logiciels soient publiques, qu’on sache sur quelles données ils faisaient leur apprentissage pour qu’on puisse comprendre ce qu’ils faisaient et qu’il y ait des traces des décisions prises pour qu’on puisse faire des post-mortem comme on dit en informatique, c’est-à-dire analyser quand le système a crashé pour comprendre pourquoi. Or, sous couvert de secret des affaires, les véhicules commercialisés n’en sont pas équipés.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Je voudrais vous poser deux questions. Vous avez commencé par nous dire « il n’y a pas d’intelligence là-dedans en principe ce sont juste des statistiques ». Puis vous nous avez indiqué quand même « s’il y avait une intelligence et peut-être qu’il y en a une, elle deviendrait folle ». Alors il y a une intelligence ou il n’y en a pas ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Ça c’est une grande question. Les éléments traditionnels dont parlait monsieur ??? ce sont les intelligences artificielles au sens informatique du terme qui sont des outils statistiques et qui ne sont pas intelligents. Il serait aberrant qu’un outil soit doté d’une personnalité juridique, parce qu’il n’a pas de volonté. Or la personnalité juridique sert normalement à couvrir les délits et le délit est toujours l’expression d’une volonté ou d’une absence de volonté. Le fait que cet élément-là n’ait pas de volonté devrait lui retirer la personnalité juridique.<br />
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Ce qui est vendu commercialement, ce qui est <em>marketé</em> sur ces véhicules, c’est le fait qu’ils sont véritablement intelligents ; la façon dont on discute avec les véhicules quand on monte à bord peut le laisser croire. Et effectivement il existe des proto-intelligences faibles, enfin des débuts d’intelligences pour de vraies mais plutôt expérimentales. Je ne sais pas et je ne peux pas dire parce que je n’ai pas accès à l’information si ce qui était à bord du véhicule c’est un outil d’analyse statistique ou si c’est quelque chose de plus perfectionné.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Vous nous avez dit également que finalement on avait donné la personnalité juridique aux intelligences artificielles pour masquer d’autres responsabilités ou pour faire écran par rapport à d’autres responsabilités. Est-ce qu’il n’y a pas à ce moment-là un risque que l’intelligence artificielle joue un peu le rôle d’un bouc émissaire ? Qu’on charge l’intelligence artificielle de toutes les responsabilités, de tous les dysfonctionnements ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Si, c’est le risque. Je pense que ça n’avait pas été conçu par le législateur pour être de la responsabilité pénale en cas d’accident. Il se trouve que la façon dont les textes sont rédigés fait qu’on peut l’appliquer comme ça et que vous, juge, n’avez que le choix d’appliquer la loi. Il n’est pas du tout clair que ça a été pensé comme ça.<br />
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Si je prends un parallèle un peu osé, une société anonyme ou une société à responsabilité limitée c’est bien un objet – un objet c’est une chose, ça n’a pas d’âme – qui est doté d’une personnalité juridique pour faire écran de manière à ce que ce soit la société qui soit responsable et non pas les actionnaires ou les salariés. C’est exactement le même jeu qui a été construit, mais de manière nettement plus fine et plus subtile dans la légistique, c’est bien pour faire écran à des responsabilités.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci beaucoup. Est-ce qu’il y a des questions de la part de la cour ?<br />
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<b>Célia Zolinski, assesseure : </b>Merci monsieur le président. Merci monsieur pour cet exposé. Je m’interrogeais sur le concept de <em>security by design</em> qui a été récemment consacré par la loi pour promouvoir l’intelligence artificielle et de savoir si les principes de loyauté et de vigilance qui avaient, il y a quelques années, été promus par la CNIL dans son rapport sur l’intelligence artificielle, est-ce que ces principes vous semblent potentiellement pouvoir contourner les difficultés que vous énonciez c’est-à-dire l’impossibilité, finalement, de savoir comment se comporte l’IA et d’éviter, finalement, de conduire à des conséquences aussi préjudiciables que celles que vous imaginez et dont on a été témoins à l’occasion de cet accident ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Il y a plusieurs questions dans votre question. Est-ce que les principes proposés par la CNIL étaient bons ? Oui, mais c’est une déclaration d’intention. Est-ce qu’ils sont respectés ? Je n’en sais rien et je n’ai pas moyen de le savoir puisque nous n’avons pas la trace. Normalement le principe de loyauté et le principe de prudence c’est le fait que quand l’ordinateur détecte, mettons qu’il voit une image, il se demande est-ce que c’est un chien ou un piéton ?, il a un doute, il n’est pas certain de sa réponse, il doit choisir la réponse qui entraîne le moins de risques. C’est-à-dire s’il se demande est-ce que c’est une ombre ou est-ce que c’est un obstacle ?, il doit considérer que c’est un obstacle et donc s’arrêter éventuellement. On a tous connu ça : le véhicule qui s’arrête devant une ombre, on ne comprend pourquoi, et qui se met à rouler hyper doucement jusqu’à avoir passé l’ombre et puis repart. C’est normal, c’est de la prudence. Rien ne permettait à l’ordinateur de différencier.<br /><br />
Ça ce sont des principes de base de ce que définit la CNIL. Mais comment savoir si le logiciel qui est embarqué dans le véhicule respecte ces principes ou pas ? Personne n’a accès au code source ; personne ne sait ce que ça fait. Tout ça est couvert par le secret des affaires. Et c’est un élément clef ; c’est un élément clef pour comprendre ce qui se passe.<br />
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<b>Célia Zolinski, assesseure : </b>Ne pensez-vous pas que ce principe de loyauté qui est désormais consacré par la loi nous permettrait ici d’être un fondement pour lever sous certaines conditions le secret des affaires ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Exiger la publication ? C’était ce que nous défendions auprès des députés à l’époque où les textes ont été votés et nous avons perdu.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Bien. Je crois qu’on a répondu à cette question de la cour. Y a-t-il une question de la part des jurés ? Oui, je vous en prie.<br />
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<b>François Pellegrini, juré : </b>Merci monsieur pour votre exposé. Vous faites état de la question des boîtes noires et du fait d’auditer le comportement des IA. Simplement, lors des débats que vous citiez, est aussi apparu le principe avec celui de la personne électronique, de l’inviolabilité de la personne électronique qui fait que justement il devient impossible d’accéder à ces données de paramétrage interne puisqu’elles sont issues de sa propre expérience et, par analogie avec la personne humaine, le fait qu’on ne puisse pas accéder à l’intime de la personne. Donc vous auriez tendance à récuser ce principe d’inviolabilité de la personne électronique, de faire une différence entre les deux régimes alors qu’on voit aussi la tendance à protéger les animaux qui acquièrent également, de part leur sensibilité, une protection juridique supplémentaire. Vous penseriez revenir en arrière par rapport à ce principe fondamental ?<br />
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<b>Benjamin Bayart : </b>Non. Ce que je trouve contestable, c’est qu’on accorde ce principe à quelque chose qui n’est pas une intelligence mais qui n’est qu’un outil statistique. Les intelligences dites fortes, même si elles ne sont encore pas très musclées en ce moment, celles qui commencent à ressembler à peu près à une carpe ou à un lapin en termes de qualité de raisonnement, sont des êtres et il est inconcevable de les enfermer dans des choses. Il est inconcevable de les enfermer dans une voiture qu’on ne puisse éteindre ; ça n’a pas de sens ; c’est une forme de maltraitance que le plus maltraité des animaux de trait n’a jamais subi. Le cheval de labour, quand il a fini de labourer, il est détaché de la charrue ; il n’est pas la charrue, il n’est pas rangé pendant des mois dans un placard.<br /><br />
Quand on commence à avoir des intelligences autonomes propres, le statut juridique actuel de personnalité électronique est très insuffisant puisqu’il ne reconnaît pas de droits à cet être, or cet être devrait avoir des droits et il devrait avoir des droits comparables à ceux d’un animal ou d’un humain en fonction du niveau d’intelligence qu’il développe.<br />
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En revanche appliquer le système actuel sur des choses qui sont des outils statistiques, ça ne me semble pas adapté et, accessoirement, si on a mis à piloter une voiture autre chose qu’un outil statistique c’est une erreur et c’est une erreur très grave ; c’est quasiment criminel pour les gens dans le véhicule qui ne savent pas que le système qui pilote est capable d’être colérique, ce qui est aberrant, et bien sûr c’est criminel vis-à-vis de l’être proto-conscient qu’on a enfermé dans une boîte de conserve.<br />
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<b>Président de la Cour : </b>Merci. Il nous reste à remercier le témoin et à donner la parole cette fois-ci pour ses réquisitions au ministère public.</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Discussion:Signotheque&diff=81044Discussion:Signotheque2018-10-18T20:33:21Z<p>JennyB : Page créée avec « seule une personne connaissant la langues des signes pourrait distinguer ce qu'il et ce qu'elle dit. Est-il utilise d'écrire leurs 2 prénoms, ne serait-ce pas mieux de r... »</p>
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<div>seule une personne connaissant la langues des signes pourrait distinguer ce qu'il et ce qu'elle dit.<br />
Est-il utilise d'écrire leurs 2 prénoms, ne serait-ce pas mieux de rythmer le texte par le titre des diapos ?</div>JennyBhttps://wiki.april.org/index.php?title=Signotheque&diff=81043Signotheque2018-10-18T20:31:23Z<p>JennyB : ajout de titres de diapo, relecture et quelques modifs (Jenny)</p>
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<div>[[Catégorie:Transcriptions]]<br />
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'''Titre :''' Projet Signothèque - Contribuer pour créer et faire progresser l'accessibilité : La signothèque vise à encourager la créativité<br />
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'''Intervenants :''' Hocine (Sourd, President de l'association Arboré'Sign) - Sungja (Entendante, Porteuse du Projet Signothèque)<br />
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'''Lieu :''' PSESHSF (Pas Sage En Seine - Hacker Space Festival)<br />
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'''Date :''' Juillet 2016<br />
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'''Durée :''' 43 min 45<br />
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'''Pour visionner la vidéo [http://data.passageenseine.org/2016/mp4/PSESHSF-2016%20-%20l'association%20Arbor%C3%A9'Sign%20-%20Projet%20Signoth%C3%A8que.mp4 ici] ou [https://www.okpal.com/signotheque ici]'''<br />
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'''[http://data.passageenseine.org/2016/slides/prez%20signoth%C3%A8que.pdf Pour télécharger la présentation]'''<br />
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'''Statut :''' Transcription en cours ''MO''. Relecture (avec son): Jenny<br />
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==Description==<br />
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Les domaines d'application sont variés, ajouter des dessins signés permet de rendre accessibles : des supports pédagogiques, des jeux de société, des jeux vidéo, des livres, des applications, des sites, des affiches de bar, de festivals.<br />
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Tout est permis : pourquoi pas des signes à la boulangerie du coin, chez le coiffeur, la création de supports papier de communication interne à l'entreprise pour aider à l'intégration des collègues sourds, etc...<br />
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==Transcription des paroles de l'interprète==<br />
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==00'==<br />
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'''Hocine''' : <br />
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Bonjour à tous et à toutes. <br />
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Je suis le président de l'association [http://arboresign.org/ Arboré'Sign]. Le signe d'Arboré'Sign s'effectue comme ceci [il montre au public le nom de l'association en langue des signes, le mouvement représente une graine qui est plantée, grâce à laquelle pousse un arbre].<br />
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Le signe de la Signothèque s'effectue ainsi, en référence à celui de "bibliothèque". [il montre au public le terme en langue des signes désignant la Signothèque, qui se distingue de "bibliothèque" par la configuration des mains, les doigts étant écartés]. <br />
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Pourquoi a-t-on crée la Signothèque ? Ce projet a commencé l'année dernière suite à ma rencontre avec Sungja, ici présente. Sa fille, sourde, est scolarisée au sein d'une école bilingue accueillant des élèves sourds, qui dispense un enseignement en langue des signes. Il s'est demandé comment aider à l'apprentissage de la lecture pour les jeunes sourds. De cette situation, est née une réflexion sur les moyens d'apprendre de manière autonome, une discussion s'est alors créée autour de cette problématique, incluant également la question de l'enseignement bilingue ainsi que la philosophie des logiciels libre. Nous avons donc échangé sur les moyens de mettre en place un projet en langue des signes, de manière collaborative. <br />
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Nous en sommes actuellement à notre sixième présentation du projet, après un passage par Toulouse, la Signothèque a également fait l'objet d'une conférence lors du festival Poop, qui a eu lieu récemment à Paris. Aujourd'hui, c'est donc la deuxième fois que nous l'exposons dans la région. L'avancée du projet fera probablement l'objet d'interventions futures auxquelles vous pourrez assister (notamment lors de l'événement Capitole du Libre).<br />
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Notre intervention n'est pas une véritable conférence au sens usuel, il s'agit plutôt d'un moment d'échanges, de partage.<br />
Lors du Capitole du Libre, la présentation sera davantage aboutie. A suivre ! <br />
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Je vous invite à suivre ce powerpoint.<br />
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Qui parmi vous connaît la culture libre ? Certain-e-s d'entre vous connaissent cette notion. Voici quelques explications. La culture libre est absolument fondamentale, face à l'accès fragile qu'en ont les sourd-e-s, il est nécessaire que les deux cultures, la culture sourde et la culture libre, se côtoient.<br />
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Sungja va à présent prendre la parole. <br />
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'''Sungja''' :<br />
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On va d'abord commencer par vous donner une définition du projet Signothèque. Le projet de la Signothèque c'est quoi ? C'est quelque chose qu'on va trouver sur Internet. Un site regroupera des signes, via le format dessin vectoriel. <br />
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'''Hocine''' : <br />
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Beaucoup de sites contenant un lexique en langue des signes ne sont pas mis à jour, ont été délaissés, désactivés ou ont fermé, il s'agit de sites « morts ». Comment peut-on protéger cette multitude de données, les rendre vivantes, pour que la langue des signes continue à vivre sur Internet ?<br />
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Par ailleurs, nous avons opté pour un format vectoriel. Sur internet, la langue des signes est très très peu voire pas du tout accessible via ce format.<br />
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'''Sungja''' : <br />
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Des problèmes se posent en terme de droits de diffusion et d'accès. <br />
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'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
Effectivement, on fait face à la question du droit à l'image. Lorsque l'on élabore un dictionnaire en langue des signes, les signes sont effectués par une personne qui est photographiée ou filmée, il est alors possible de voir son visage, nous sommes ainsi contraints par le droit à l'image. Or, ces droits sont extrêmement chers. Une solution consiste à cacher, à flouter les visages pour qu'ils ne soient pas reconnaissables, ce qui garantie une neutralité. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
Des problèmes de droits de diffusion, d'accès se posent.<br />
Il n'est pas clairement dit qu'on peut reprendre les données pour en faire ce qu'on veut. <br />
Ce n'est pas super efficace !<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
L'aspect dessin présente un intérêt pour l'apprentissage des enfants, qu'ils soient sourds ou entendants. Le mode écrit peut passer par la rédaction de mots, mais également par le dessin. Comment mettre en marche cette dynamique ? <br />
Je laisse Sungja intervenir autour de la thématique de l'éducation libre.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
Dans un cadre pédagogique, ils apprendront qu'il est possible de faire ce que l'on veut avec un dessin créé selon les principes d'une philosophie libre, on peut le copier, le diffuser. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
Peu de personnes ont les compétences techniques nécessaires.<br />
Nous avons actuellement besoin des compétences de développeurs. L'infographie constitue un autre domaine. <br />
<br />
Extrêmement peu de personnes sourdes sont capables d’œuvrer en tant que développeur, bien que certain-e-s entendants pratiquant la langue des signes puissent assurer cette fonction. <br />
Y en-a-t-il parmi vous ? Un developeur connaissant la langue des signes ?<br />
Ces compétences sont très précieuses, nous en avons énormément besoin, mobilisons toutes ces énergies pour être plus fort.<br />
<br />
Une bonne visibilité est très importante, afin de rendre plus aisée la compréhension des éléments de la langue des signes. <br />
Certains signes représentés sur format papier sont source d'erreurs lorsqu'il s'agit de les reproduire. Avec le dessin vectoriel, nous serons en mesure d'effectuer des modifications si cela s'avère nécessaire. Grâce à cet outil, des dessins pourront être retouchés de manière à obtenir un résultat plus juste. <br />
Il est possible de jouer sur les contrastes, de modifier certains paramètres pour que les personnes sourdes puissent également avoir accès à ces contenus.<br />
<br />
La portabilité est un autre aspect essentiel. Il n'est pas nécessaire d'avoir un accès internet, même s'il n'y a pas de réseau, il est possible d'y accéder de manière autonome. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
Ce n'est pas forcément pour faciliter l'apprentissage, mais pour plus de visiblité. Par exemple rendre la langue des signes présente sur un festival, ici ou dans une médiathèque, cela permet de prendre conscience que les sourds existent et qu'ils parlent une autre langue. Au niveau de l'apprentissage, cela donne des petits signes que l'on repère et que l'on apprend. Nous sommes donc davantage axés sur la culture, sur l’éducation des entendants, que sur l’éducation des sourds, même si, bien sûr, ce projet vise aussi l’éducation des personnes sourdes. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : Les questions pourront être posées après. Nous gardons la question concernant la plateforme IRC pour tout à l'heure. <br />
Abordons maintenant l'accessibilité. Qui parmi vous aime l'accessibilité ? D'abord, que signifie ce terme ?<br />
Ce n'est pas une question de handicap, mais d'adaptation. Il s'agit d'une réflexion sur les moyens de s'adapter aux différentes personnes, une réflexion sur de nouvelles ergonomies, quels que soient les profils de chacun : aveugles, sourds, sourds ushers, dysphasiques, personnes en fauteuil roulant...<br />
<br />
La créativité est également un axe de notre projet. Le dessin est un bon moyen de s'exprimer, d'exprimer toute sa créativité et de la mettre au profit de la création lexicale. Dès lors qu'un signe a été crée, il est possible de le fixer sur un support via le dessin.<br />
Qui parmi vous a des compétences en infographie ? Qui est capable de dessiner des éléments de la langue des signes ? Il y en a un.<br />
<br />
Penchons nous maintenant sur la licence libre. Qui parmi vous connaît ce concept ? <br />
Qui peut me dire ce qu'est la licence libre ?<br />
Je vais expliquer en quoi c'est quelques chose de vraiment fondamental, qui a sa place au sein de ce festival autour de la culture libre. <br />
La notion centrale est celle d'autorisation de reproduction, il est possible de reproduire un signe de la Signothèque sans coût financier. <br />
Dans le domaine de la cuisine, une personne peut aussi s'inspirer d'autres recettes, reproduire ce que les autres ont fait, pour cuisiner à sa sauce, tout à fait librement. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Personne du public''' : <br />
<br />
La recette de cuisine aussi, on peut la prendre, donc c'est plus compliqué. Par exemple je me filme, je signe un nouveau mot. Il y a beaucoup de monde qui me regarde. Il y a des personnes qui le prennent et qui diffusent et ce n'est pas breveté. Donc un dessin, oui je le comprends. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :'''<br />
<br />
Il s'agit seulement ici d'une autorisation de reproduction de dessins, de façon à ce que tout le monde puisse y avoir accès et les reproduire. <br />
Dans les années 1830, certains ouvrages comportaient déjà des dessins de signes de la langue des signes, qui étaient dors et déjà reproduits.<br />
A l'époque, les droits de diffusion s'appliquaient 70 ans après la conception de l'oeuvre, pour ma part il n'est pas question d'attendre tout ce temps, j'aimerais que ce qui est produit puisse être très rapidement diffusé. J'ai une autre philosophie en ce qui concerne la diffusion de ces contenus, c'est un choix assumé que d'autoriser leur diffusion pour que n'importe qui puisse les utiliser.<br />
<br />
Passons à l'aspect "universel". Attention, cela ne signifie guère que la langue des signes est universelle. Il existe plus de 300 langue des signes à travers le monde.<br />
<br />
La Signothèque est un outil collaboratif. Bien sûr, pour développer un projet, il faut une communauté et un partage pour l'élaboration en collaboratif. <br />
<br />
Penchons nous sur le format vectoriel. <br />
Cet aspect est important car cela permet de garantir la qualité de l'image lors des impressions ou si cette dernière est agrandie. Si vous êtes développeurs je pense que vous connaissez les mérites du vectoriel !<br />
Ce format est également intéressants pour les personnes malvoyantes.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
On peut en effet changer les couleurs, les dimensions très facilement, pour les personnes malvoyantes, ça peut être intéressant pour jouer sur les contrastes. C'est également intéressant pour les aveugles, car l'avantage du vectoriel est que l'on peut ajouter aussi des métadonnées.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
Concernant les métadonnées, une expérimentation a été menée il y a deux mois. Cette interface permettant d'annoter les signes, nous avons échangé autour de cette problématique, sur la manière dont on pouvait obtenir ces données à partir des réalisations. Ces élements connexes seront classés de manière à ce qu'ils soient retrouvés simplement.<br />
Il est également possible d'effectuer des réglages sur cette plateforme selon ce qu'on souhaite en terme de droits de reproduction. <br />
Il y a aussi une notification sur la licence, le type de licence. Il y a la paternité. Tout cela est visible et rattaché au dossier des fichiers SVG. <br />
Des mots clefs peuvent être rattachés au signe, via une recherche ou de façon automatique.<br />
Cette réflexion sera encore enrichie à l'avenir, tout le long de l'avancée du projet.<br />
<br />
Utilisant le mode opensource, nous sommes également ouverts aux critiques, aux propositions de modifications, d'adaptations.<br />
<br />
==17' 20==<br />
Nom diapo montrée : Editeur rapide de signes<br />
<br />
La base de données présente quelques visages dessinés, ces derniers sont interchangeables. Il est toutefois difficile de représenter le mouvement. Penchons nous d'abord sur le point suivant : éditeur rapide de signes. Comment construire rapidement un signe, de la manière la plus simple possible, en évitant toute complications ?<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
On a réfléchi à ça, c'est assez compliqué lorsque l'on est sur du dessin avec un infographiste, à part l'attacher dans une cave. Donc du coup, on a pensé à créer un éditeur rapide de signes qui serait pris avec différents éléments qu'on pourrait piocher pour créer un signe.<br />
Ce serait quelque chose avec la configuration des mains, des expressions du visage. Tout ça ce serait vraiment la base, avec des mains. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' :<br />
<br />
Les 5 paramètres de la langue des signes sont pris en compte : configuration des mains, orientation, emplacement dans l'espace, mouvement, expressions faciales. <br />
Le corps représenté pourrait être celui d'un homme, d'une femme, d'un animal, d'un robot,... <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
Nous avons attaché des graphistes et ils ont fait des essais. L'éditeur de signes fonctionnerait comme ainsi : on prend un visage et des sous-ensembles qu'on rattache, on voit que ça fonctionne très bien.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
Il est possible d'effectuer quelques réglages, il s'agit ici d'essais qui n'ont pas encore atteints la perfection. Les progrès se feront petit à petit, tout au long de l'avancée du projet. <br />
<br />
Diapo montrée : Applications<br />
<br />
Voyons maintenant les multiples applications de la Signothèque.<br />
En terme d'éducation, tout d'abord, sachons que l'Etat n'accorde aucune subvention nous permettant de disposer d'ouvrages en langue des signes. Nous ne disposons pas de livres en langue des signes à des fins pédagogiques. <br />
Ici également, lors de notre passage à la médiathèque, nous n'avons rien trouvé de tout ça, si ce n'est un seul ouvrage, un dictionnaire en langue des signes. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
Pour les entendants, par exemple, beaucoup de livres d'histoire sont accessibles.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
Des subventions devraient pouvoir être allouées, il nous faut continuer à lutter, pour que l'éducation en France soit faite directement en langue des signes et créer des supports adaptés.<br />
En France, seulement 5% des enfants sourds ont accès à une éducation en langue des signes.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
C'est vrai qu'en créant des ressources libres, ça facilite ce genre d'initiatives.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
L'accessibilité peut concerner les festivals, le domaine du cinéma,... il en est question lorsque l'on commande à boire. Il n'est pas possible de faire des photocopies de documents existants, ces supports ne sont pas gratuits.<br />
Lors de festivals, des bénévoles ont opté pour le dessin, or cette technique est plus aléatoire, elle peut induire en erreur par manque de précisions. La Signothèque permettrait ainsi d'avoir une base de données où il est possible de piocher.<br />
<br />
Concernant les jeux, les enfants peuvent jouer, grâce à des logiciels libres, se basant sur un fonctionnement en opensource. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
La langue des signes peut être ajoutée dans les jeux de société, on peut l'imaginer sur des cartes à jouer. Pour le moment on a surtout pensé à des cartes à jouer, mais il doit sûrement y avoir d'autres jeux de société. <br />
Dans les jeux vidéos ou sur les tablettes numériques, il y a tout un tas de jeux éducatifs pour enfants entendants, mais pas pour les enfants sourds.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
La Signothèque peut également constituer une aide pour la mémoire. Les interprètes sont très souvent confrontés à des néologismes, qui peuvent être vite oubliés.<br />
En ayant à disposition son éditeur de signes, ou en ayant fait des impressions des signes, il sera possible pour elles et eux de réviser certains termes si besoin. <br />
<br />
La communication au sein de la famille est une question cruciale. 90% des enfants sourds naissent de parents entendants. Ces derniers ne pratiquant pas la langue des signes, la relation avec leur enfant en devient délicate. Les pouvoirs publics n'allouent pas de subventions pour le développement de formations de langue des signes pour ces parents entendants, il est donc difficile d'apprendre cette langue.<br />
En revanche, l'implant cochléaire est gratuit (pour les parents, pas pour la société) ! La langue des signes est, quant à elle, payante ! Son apprentissage devrait être un droit, gratuit pour les parents. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
Enfin l'implant cochléaire est gratuit pour les parents, pas pour la société ! <br />
Tandis que nous, plus on va développer de supports accessibles et gratuits, plus on va pousser les personnes à utiliser cette langue.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
Diapo : rejoindre les signothécaires et participer<br />
<br />
Vous pouvez à présent rejoindre les signothécaires, dont nous faisons partie. Il est possible de contribuer à ce projet de différentes manières.<br />
Les personnes qui ont des compétences en la matière peuvent participer au design des signes. Nous sommes actuellement une équipe d'environ 5 infographistes, dont un sourd qui est à Paris. Ces personnes interviennent bénévolement, mais ne sont pas à temps plein. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
Il y une personne à Toulouse et quelques unes en Bretagne. On communique sur Internet et pour le moment on s'est donné pour mission de dessiner les différentes configurations des mains, en position paume de la main vers soi, vers le bas, vers l'extérieur et vers le haut. On répertorie donc pour avoir les mains. Les expressions du visage, il n'y en aura pas tant que ça à répertorier. Concernant le buste, on s'est dit avec un de trois quarts et un de face ça suffit. La plus grosse somme de travail, concernera les mains, pour alimenter la banque de signes, une banque qui va pouvoir permettre d'éditer des signes rapidement. <br />
<br />
On a également développé l'éditeur de signes, un développeur a d'ores et déjà commencé. Jérémie, un développeur, a commencé à arranger le logiciel Gégé, sur Framasoft. Je ne sais plus comment ça s'appelle, c'est un éditeur de bande dessinée, il me semble.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
Qui parmi vous connaît le logiciel Gégé ?<br />
<br />
'''Sungja''' : <br />
<br />
Il y a aussi un petit personnage sur Framasoft. Il y a un éditeur. Ça ne vous dit rien ? <br />
Il est en train de le bidouiller pour le transformer en éditeur de signes, mais il aura sûrement besoin d'aide.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
Si vous souhaitez participer, pleins de choses sont encore à faire : communiquer autour de vous autour du projet, trouver des financements, faire des tests, d'autres idées peuvent être proposées,...<br />
Nous devons aussi établir des liens avec les Fablabs, comme c'est déjà le cas à Toulouse, de même qu'avec les Tetalab. Tous ces ponts sont enrichissants et vous pouvez vous aussi en créer. <br />
<br />
Surtout, parlez en autour de vous !<br />
Rendez-vous sur les sites internet : signotheque.arboresign.org ou meetup.com/signotheque<br />
Twitter : @ArboreSign<br />
Emails : signotheque@arboresign.org (Sungja) ou contact@arboresign.org (Hocine, président de l'association ArboreSign)<br />
<br />
Des rendez-vous sont proposés, comme des ateliers mensuels, qui reprendront à partir du mois de septembre. Ces ateliers ont lieu à Toulouse. <br />
D'autres projets sont en cours en ce qui concerne l'association, le président coordonne 5 dynamiques. <br />
<br />
C'est à présent le moment de poser vos questions.<br />
<br />
==27' 40==<br />
<br />
'''Hocine''' : <br />
<br />
Je souhaite vous parler d'un aspect important. Je suis souvent invité à participer à des festivals, sans qu'il n'y ait d'interprète en langue des signes. Ceci est du à un problème de manque de moyens financiers. Nous allons continuer à réfléchir à des solutions, des demandes de subventions peuvent être faites dans le cadre de partenariat, pour que l'an prochain des interprètes soient présent-e-s. <br />
Comment cela s'organise à Paris ? Je ne sais pas, étant basé à Toulouse, il est difficile pour moi d'agir directement.<br />
<br />
A vos questions. <br />
<br />
[Des questions figurant sur l'écran sont mises en avant. Mais on n'entend pas les questions du public.]<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' <br />
<br />
Combien y a-t-il de signes en langue des signes ? <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
Il n'y a pas de limite, le nombre de signes est infini.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Stéphane Bortzmeyer :''' <br />
<br />
En attendant qu'ils finissent de taper sur IRC, je relaie une question posée sur Twitter. Il y a un groupe d'étude langue des signes à l'Assemblée nationale. Est-ce que vous avez pris contact avec eux et est-ce qu'ils peuvent être utiles pour ouvrir des portes. Le tweet en question : https://twitter.com/Tris_Acatrinei/status/749598574590255105<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungia :''' <br />
<br />
Ce groupe, c'est qui ?<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Stéphane Bortzmeyer : ''' <br />
<br />
Je ne sais pas. Je relaie une question, une remarque sur Twitter.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
Depuis 30 ans, un combat politique est mené, notamment à Toulouse, auprès du ministère de l'Education, de l'Education Nationale. Des problèmes persistent du fait de la non-reconnaissance de la langue des signes dans la constitution, dans la Loi. Par conséquent, les subventions allouées autour de la langue des signes sont très rares.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja :''' <br />
<br />
Effectivement, elles sont rares. De plus, à présent les sourds ont une toute petite subvention de la MDPH (Maison départementale des personnes handicapées). <br />
Les départements estiment que si les sourds veulent participer à la vie publique, ils n'ont que ça à disposition pour payer des interprètes.<br />
Les pouvoirs publics se désengagent de leur obligation d’être accessibles. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
Le poids de la santé est beaucoup plus important que celui de l'éducation. Ces questions sont vraiment davantage traitées par le ministère de la santé, l'écart est énorme entre ces deux institutions. Je souhaiterais renverser la balance, que l'éducation soient au contraire mise en avant à sa juste place, que la santé soit mise de côté. <br />
Ceci concerne la France, mais il y a toutefois beaucoup d'autres lieux, comme en Finlande, où la langue des signes est vraiment reconnue.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' <br />
<br />
Ce décalage entre éducation et santé est-il dû, justement, aux implants ? On préfère une solution technologique, qui ne fonctionne pas nécessairement pour tout le monde en plus, à une solution éducative pour permettre à plus de gens de connaître la langue des signes, pour permettre, à plus de gens de partager la communication des sourds dans leur environnement, même des entendants. Finalement, c'est une politique de surdité !<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
L'école de Ramonville est une des seules écoles qui proposent un parcours bilingue, n'étant pas sous la mainmise du ministère de la santé, qui éduque les enfants sourds directement en langue des signes. Je ne parlerai pas plus de la politique de l'Education Nationale en France.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja :''' <br />
<br />
Je voudrais ajouter, comme je travaille dans des écoles pour enfants entendants, on observe de toutes façons, de manière générale, que les budgets de la santé sont beaucoup plus importants que les budgets de l'éducation. Je ne sais pas pourquoi mais c’est comme ça.<br />
<br />
<br />
[Moment de flottement, discussions techniques.]<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
[question adressée à une personne présente dans le public]<br />
Wikimédia ? Quel est ton rôle ?<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Personne du public :'''<br />
<br />
Je suis référente du groupe Wikidata de Wikimédia France. Je suis bénévole. S'il y a des projets extérieurs de gens qui veulent travailler avec nous sur Wikidata et qu'ils ont besoin d'aide, je fais le lien entre les extérieurs et la communauté des bénévoles. On a lancé, nous aussi, le projet de signothèque libre, mais on a le même problème avec l'absence d'images libres. Ca permettrait de faire le lien avec d'autres signothèques libres dans d'autres langues des signes.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
Très bien, merci pour votre réponse.<br />
Nous pourrons échanger davantage lors du Capitole du Libre, où des interprètes seront présent-e-s. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
D'accord. Au Capitole du Libre ? Au Capitole du Libre, en fait, on pourra échanger plus parce qu'il y aura un interprète. Y seras-tu ?<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Personne du public :''' <br />
<br />
Je ne pense pas, je suis quasiment sûre que non. Mais je peux poser la question pour savoir s'il y aura d'autres « wikidatiens » qui pourront venir. Il y aura probablement d'autres gens. Pas moi, c'est sûr, mais d'autres gens.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
D’accord merci. <br />
Une question [à une personne du public], quelle est la place du FSF ?<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Personne du public :''' <br />
<br />
Moi je ne fais pas partie de la FSF directement, mais je travaille avec le projet GNU et je travaille avec d'autres projets aussi qui sont intéressés pour soutenir le langage des signes et améliorer l'accessibilité en informatique. Déjà avec les Toulousains, c'est sûr, s'il y a un camp en 2018, on va faire en sorte qu'il soit accessible.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
Oui, le camp "Ville Science Européenne" aura lieu en 2018 à Toulouse. <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' <br />
<br />
Hocine disait qu'il était déjà engagé dans ce processus de Toulouse Ville Science Européenne en 2018. C'est ça ?<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
Oui, je m'y suis engagé pour l'organisation de cet événement, au côté du Fablab.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' <br />
<br />
Avec le Hackerspace ?<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
Avec la Fab Foundation.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Public :'''<br />
<br />
Fablab ?<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Sungja :'''<br />
<br />
Le Fablab festival est un festival autour des Fablabs. Il y a eu un Fablab 2016 à Toulouse autour des startups, d'imprimantes 3D, d'espaces de coworking,... <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
C'est quelque chose d'officiel.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Public :''' <br />
<br />
Ah oui, c'est un autre monde, mais c'est bien, c'est complémentaire.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Hocine :''' <br />
<br />
Oui, mais c'est tout de même proche. <br />
<br />
Merci à vous, merci beaucoup aux personnes organisatrices du festival. Bon courage pour l'organisation de la prochaine édition, sous le signe de la rencontre des publics sourds et entendants. Merci.</div>JennyB